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Semi Auto Vs. Bolt action

11K views 21 replies 17 participants last post by  Ard 
#1 ·
My fiance's dad and I are planning to go hunting again when he kicks the cancer thing hopefully next hunting season. He and I have always been lever junkeys. At one point in time he had a realy nice Winchester Model 70 in 300 win mag. Says he does not want to get beat up and does not think he can handle heavy recoil. Before anybody says it, he use to shoot 80 to 100 rounds in an all day shooting session of .338 win mag! Go home brused up come back 2 weeks later and do it again. Any way he is debateing on weather to get a Semi Auto or a bolt action rifle. We will be hunting mostly in texas but says he has hopes to hunt elk or grizz from a distance. What are the advantages and disadvantages of Semi auto rifles Vs. Bolt action? How much recoil do the Semi auto rifles absorb is it minimal or a big difference? He thinks he wants a semi auto in .300 win mag. Hes looking into winchester and browning. Im kinda pushing him twords the .308 or .30-06 because of the recoil thing. I know people have hunted elk with both with good results and thats a whole nother arguement, but i realy dont ever see him beaing able to go on an elk or bear hunt. I dont think he will go for anyting less than a .30 caliber its just him. Im trying to convince him that if he ever gets to go on that big hunt its a reason to buy another rifle :D. Any way what are the advantages of both action types. I have an AR-15 but thats in its own league.
 
#2 · (Edited)
The gas operated semi-autos do recoil less. The little bit of gas that runs the operating rod is subtracted from the muzzle rocket effect, but mostly it is that the rod pushes the gun forward and the bolt and op-rod backward. That takes the edge of the recoil. The muzzle rise may still be just as great, but it does it more slowly and you can actually feel the op-rod spring soak some of the sharp impulse up. Mind you, this is talking apples to apples, meaning the guns have the same weight and recoil pads.

The downside will be that it is often harder to get a gas gun as accurate as a bolt gun out of the box. An exception is the AR type action with floating handguard, which is inherently accurate, but that will limit your caliber choices. Keep in mind that some bolt guns are nothing to brag on out of the box, either, but it is just more likely an out of the box bolt gun will be more accurate.
 
#3 ·
What ever rifle he chooses I would suggest a good muzzle break or recoil reducer such as made by JP Rifles . They are loud on the ears but make all the difference in felt recoil . I set up a Weatherby 7mm mag with a JP recoil reducer for a very petit lady to use elk hunting . She took it to the range and put 40 rounds through it and loved it .
 
#4 ·
That's a good suggestion. You might have him look at the Browning A-bolt rifles that come with the muzzle brake version of the B.O.S.S. on them? That way he can get a muzzle brake and barrel tuner rolled into one. Just keep in mind a muzzle brake throws more sound pressure back at the shooter, and have him wear hearing protection. Also, a muzzle brake can be put on most semi-autos, except one that has its gas port at the muzzle, like the Garand.
 
#5 ·
I spoke with him about the muzzel break. Ive shot a rifle that had one before but dont remember the recoil or caliber all i remember is it was freeking loud. Does anybody make a good muzzel breake that can be removed and a thred protector screwed on for hunting? We figgure if he gets one that he can remove he will just remove it when he goes hunting? Says He knows he can handle it for a couple of shots but he wishes to beable to practice with it often.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.
 
#6 ·
The B.O.S.S. can be removed, but if you've tuned the barrel with it for maximum accuracy, that will detune it. They make a B.O.S.S. without the break vents that you can use instead, but then you're back to recoil. I suppose you could substitute the solid one for the one with the brake vents for occasions where you weren't going to shoot much or couldn't carry the best hearing protection. You would probably want to tune loads with it separately to be sure it works on the same setting numbers? It may be designed to? Ask Browning?
 
#9 ·
Browning's BOSS and BOSS-CR (Conventional Recoil, meaning no brake) are supposed to work on the same settings. I have not tested that to verify. Also, Browning puts (or used to put?) the BOSS on the BAR as well, so he could have a semi-auto with a muzzle brake and barrel tuner if he wanted.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I've never used a vais muzzle brake, but they are supposed to be up to 40% quieter than a conventional muzzle brake, you could also add a recoil reducer that would help soak up more recoil.
 
#12 ·
ZapZoo, I visited a table at the Market Hall Gun Show last Saturday, the person that sets up at that table has been making a career change and has gotten into the muzzle brake business, he was demonstrating the brake he sells, he rotated the brake and said, "this is on, this is off", he did not take it off, he did not put it on, he rotated the brake, I was not interested but thought the concept was interesting.

F, Guffey
 
#15 ·
On your AR15 don't forget another upper in 6.5 Grendal, 6.8 SPC for deer and .458 SOCOM for larger game. On the AR-10 platform they are chambered from DPMS and Armalite in .308, .338 Fed and .300 WSM. Best of luck to your future father in law.

CD
 
#16 ·
I sent my .308 rifle to MAGNA-PORT for treatment. No more muzzle jump! Muzzle blast is not increased at all which is a significant advantage over other companies.

Hornady Light Magnum ammo takes the .308 cartridge to performance level of 30-06. This buck never knew what hit him.

TR


 
#17 ·
Hello,

Having only hunted elk twice, you must take my thoughts and theories on elk cartridges with a grain of salt. On the other hand, I have in fact let the air out of an absolute railroad car or more of deer and caribou, not to mention three trips to Africa, the last one lasted a month and included culling female antelope to help rebalance the local gender ratios. I might know how to fix someone up with a "deer rifle" who is also recoil sensitive.

All these latest gadgets and moving parts make me nervous. I don't even like variable power scopes. Too many moving parts. (Bah, humbug to unnecessary moving parts). Having volunteered as a line safety dude on a major rifle range, just outside The Twin Cities, Minnesota, during the week prior to deer season, I've come to the conclusion that typical sporting/hunting semi autos are not overly reliable in general, including with factory ammo. The more robust Military designs seemed to be more reliable as self loaders go, reloads or not.

In today's technology worshiping culture, we Americanos tend to be preoccupied with finding solutions to firearms problems that usually have already been solved by our Grandfathers. Tolerable recoil in a deer worthy rifle is one of these already solved problems, if you ask me. Even for elk, the following information might work well. Although admittedly, it's not for truly long range shooting on such largish and potentially "impact resistant" critters like an elk.

Any way, when I was raising my wee sons (both now bigger than I am), by age 12 each, they had graduated to the .300 Savage cartridge for such things as caribou and deer hunting. Even with a 180 grain bullet, recoil is very moderate in a bolt action, lever action or even the good old Remington pump rifle. It is likely not a 400 yard elk cartridge however, it is possibly suitable out to about 300 yds if one is willing to practice, practice, practice and chose a proper bullet weight for the animal hunted. (Good advice for any choice of caliber). If a person does not reload, it is very easy to find a few boxes of live shells for it at any place ammo is sold in USA and Canada. Furthermore, it is not very expensive as ammuniton goes.

Remington made a limited run of their Model-700 Classic in .300 Savage and it was a sales flop. therefore, they are often available for not too much money. Likewise their old 1950s-ish Model 722 bolt action (father to the short action Model 700 ADL) has not had much collector's interest in .300 Savage caliber. Both models are typically super accurate and of course scope bases by most any company that makes them are very common for either model.

I will admit that there are a million other cartridges better suited to elk hunting, especially if the shots are likely to be quite long. However, most if not all of them recoil and blast like a howitzer (and ruin about as much meat sometimes as well). With a normal weight bolt action .300 Savage, the person who is recoil sensitive can still shoot a .30 bore and 180 grain bullet without any sort of ear drum blistering muzzle break needed for that once a year shot at a critter. A person does not need to risk their established accuracy by cutting slots through their barrel or from threading on some product that the inventer claims will do all things, including: keep the IRS off your back, cure gout and help you find a woman.

The 7x57 is another fine hunting caliber for low recoil and it IS in fact generally available around the world. The 7x57 is marginal for elk at longer range like the .300 Savage is but reportedly does good enough work out to "normal" ranges at which elk and deer are typically shot. However the man had mentioned that his soon to be relative has a medical problem of recoil which needed to be solved with at least a .30 caliber. If reloading were an option, I'd vigorously agree with one or more writer here on the
.30-06. That way he could load it to a tolerable recoil level and at such time as his health improved, he could start turning up the flame on velocity and recoil. For that matter, he could just do that in the first place with his .300 Magnum, if he reloaded for it.

I only hope the man pulls through his bout with that terrible disease and "comes out shooting".

Merry Christmas.
Ard
 
#19 ·
Hello,

Having only hunted elk twice, you must take my thoughts and theories on elk cartridges with a grain of salt. On the other hand, I have in fact let the air out of an absolute railroad car or more of deer and caribou, not to mention three trips to Africa, the last one lasted a month and included culling female antelope to help rebalance the local gender ratios. I might know how to fix someone up with a "deer rifle" who is also recoil sensitive.

All these latest gadgets and moving parts make me nervous. I don't even like variable power scopes. Too many moving parts. (Bah, humbug to unnecessary moving parts). Having volunteered as a line safety dude on a major rifle range, just outside The Twin Cities, Minnesota, during the week prior to deer season, I've come to the conclusion that typical sporting/hunting semi autos are not overly reliable in general, including with factory ammo. The more robust Military designs seemed to be more reliable as self loaders go, reloads or not.

In today's technology worshiping culture, we Americanos tend to be preoccupied with finding solutions to firearms problems that usually have already been solved by our Grandfathers. Tolerable recoil in a deer worthy rifle is one of these already solved problems, if you ask me. Even for elk, the following information might work well. Although admittedly, it's not for truly long range shooting on such largish and potentially "impact resistant" critters like an elk.

Any way, when I was raising my wee sons (both now bigger than I am), by age 12 each, they had graduated to the .300 Savage cartridge for such things as caribou and deer hunting. Even with a 180 grain bullet, recoil is very moderate in a bolt action, lever action or even the good old Remington pump rifle. It is likely not a 400 yard elk cartridge however, it is possibly suitable out to about 300 yds if one is willing to practice, practice, practice and chose a proper bullet weight for the animal hunted. (Good advice for any choice of caliber). If a person does not reload, it is very easy to find a few boxes of live shells for it at any place ammo is sold in USA and Canada. Furthermore, it is not very expensive as ammuniton goes.

Remington made a limited run of their Model-700 Classic in .300 Savage and it was a sales flop. therefore, they are often available for not too much money. Likewise their old 1950s-ish Model 722 bolt action (father to the short action Model 700 ADL) has not had much collector's interest in .300 Savage caliber. Both models are typically super accurate and of course scope bases by most any company that makes them are very common for either model.

I will admit that there are a million other cartridges better suited to elk hunting, especially if the shots are likely to be quite long. However, most if not all of them recoil and blast like a howitzer (and ruin about as much meat sometimes as well). With a normal weight bolt action .300 Savage, the person who is recoil sensitive can still shoot a .30 bore and 180 grain bullet without any sort of ear drum blistering muzzle break needed for that once a year shot at a critter. A person does not need to risk their established accuracy by cutting slots through their barrel or from threading on some product that the inventer claims will do all things, including: keep the IRS off your back, cure gout and help you find a woman.

The 7x57 is another fine hunting caliber for low recoil and it IS in fact generally available around the world. The 7x57 is marginal for elk at longer range like the .300 Savage is but reportedly does good enough work out to "normal" ranges at which elk and deer are typically shot. However the man had mentioned that his soon to be relative has a medical problem of recoil which needed to be solved with at least a .30 caliber. If reloading were an option, I'd vigorously agree with one or more writer here on the
.30-06. That way he could load it to a tolerable recoil level and at such time as his health improved, he could start turning up the flame on velocity and recoil. For that matter, he could just do that in the first place with his .300 Magnum, if he reloaded for it.

I only hope the man pulls through his bout with that terrible disease and "comes out shooting".

Merry Christmas.
Ard
:DInteresting. I shot my first deer with a borrowed 300 Savage. And I am having a love affair with the ballistic twin of the 7x57, 7mm-08.;)
By the way I agree with you.
Where in AK are you?:)
 
#18 ·
My agreement on his speedy and complete recovery as well !!

'06 ... '06 ... '06 !! the old tried and true 30/06 will be an absolutely perfect solution to this "problem" - Now, don't get me wrong because I LOVE my magnums and long range shooting but given the limitations mentioned, the concerns and the fact that the good ole' '06 has killed a "box car" full of elk, moose and critters way meaner and tougher, it jumps out at me like a spook behind a jack-o-lantern ! 150's - 165's - 180's - 200's - 220's Ya' got it all in one very capable cartridge ....

Ard - Once again I must compliment your writing (and stories) keep writing ...
 
#20 ·
To answer the original question, I've owned quite a few semi's and still own a few. I like a bolt action and a lever action too. But my suggestion would be the .300 Win Magnum in a Browning BAR. Bought one shortly after they came out for Moose hunting. Wonderful rifle in a wonderful caliber. Felt recoil is considerably less than the same caliber in a bolt gun. Shot a 60" bull in Ontario one year with it. The bull was across the river from me. This was up on the Albany River in Ontario. He had come to water and I was sitting in front of camp enjoying the spectacular view. The range was about 350 yards across the River at that point. He dropped at the shot. He got back up and tried to go up the bank, back into the bush. He actually made it about halfway up before piling up and rolling back down to the river shore. I never had any problems with accuracy with this rifle and shot factory ammo. What truly impressed me was the lack of recoil.

My pilot always carried a Remington 740 in .30-06. He carried it everywhere, even downtown. Now here's a man that uses a rifle, lives by his rifle. Treated his plane and his rifle as well as he treated his wonderful wife. I ended up leaving the rifle with him and he absolutely adored it.

I've also used a Winchester M100-C in .308 on deer and moose. A fine killer but you had to be a lot closer for a sure kill, especially on Moose. Easy animal to kill, they just don't know they're dead and tend to wander off into the bush.

A side note here though. Have a gunsmith go thru the rifle and degrease it and get the oil out if you're gonna be hunting in really cold weather. I have had NO problems with any of my semi's freezing up. I live in Michigan and our Winters get a little fresh outside. Same thing out in Colorado, where I spent a dozen years.

My best to him. Hope he beats the Cancer.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Hello Backcountry,

Thanks again for the vote of confidence. As a result of yours and other person's kind compliments, I am now wondering if I should try to break into writing a magazine article. Not sure how to go about the whole process however, I aim (pardon the pun) to find out before winter is over. Any suggestions will be appreciated. I sure do have some appropriate photos to weave into a hunting (or fly fishing) article.

The .30-06 was the first centerfire rifle I ever shot and the first one I ever owned a few years after that. I too am VERY fond if it. However, I'm under the impression that the fellow with the medical condition cannot tolerate the recoil of even that cartridge with a typical factory "elk load" (I presume a 180 grain is pretty acceptable for elk in the .30-06, especially a premium bonded 180). Again if he reloads, he is in like Flint with many cartridges, including the tried and true '06. Incidentally, not very many years ago that shell was considered appropriate for 1,000 yard competition shooting. Perhaps it still is with some folks.

I am not a match shooter but have won an informal, "iron sights only" match with my unaltered 03-A3 Springfield when I was in high school. First prise was a pizza. Having since shot a number of antlered game and some feral oinkers with it, I will say it is a fine big game round in my personal experience. Also I have clobbered prairie dogs, California ground squirrels, a ton of jack rabbits and a few marmots with the .30-06. Not sure any more how many of them I have owned over the years but it is well more than a dozen I will guess. Currently I have but one. It is an FN Commercial Mauser Model 98 with a Khales 4x scope in old style Talley bases and lever rings. Woe unto the unfortunate critter I decide to fire upon with it.

I've used the 150, 165, 180 and 220 JSP on big game with very good luck. Have used 110 and 130 on N. American varmints as well. I like the 150s for longer range shooting, even on varmints like coyotes because my rifle "likes them". They always seem to mushroom even at longer ranges but the "experts" say 165s are better. Whatever.
The 220 grain experience for me was largely just this year on African antelope and they (220s) were impressive indeed. (Handloaded Hornady RNSP @ 2300-ish FPS in a safari lodge issue rifle-Brno Model ZKK Mauser and Zeiss scope). Excellent bullet for what it was designed to do. Probably not intended for super velocity (dreaded magnums)and probably too long for the .300 Savage or .308 but not sure since I never tried using it in anything except the .30-06 and then mostly because the rifle and ammo was handed to me upon arriving at the lodge.

As for semi-auto rifles reducing recoil, I guess they do. Among my always coming and going .30-06 minagery, two were M-1 Garands (a standard one and a Fulton Armory built/full target one that I bought used as an investment and never fired it). One was a Remington with the plain/uncheckered walnut stock (1950s or early 60s ?). I shot the living daylights out of my standard (Int. Harvester) M-1 and had virtually no malfunctions to speak of unless I did something really dumb (which I am still known to do from time to time) like try to shoot a load that was too mild to cycle the action properly.

I no longer own a semi-auto .30-06 but the one fellow's suggestion of using a semi auto .300 magnum to reduce felt recoil is probably worth considering if one is willing to put up with the particular quirks that self loaders have. This, according to the semi auto writer himself includes; having a gunsmith scrub all the oil out of the weapon prior to hunting in a cold climate. Too much oil can stop even a Mauser 98 if the weather is cold enough but I will guess here that the civilian type semi auto is a bit more sensitive to such things than most other designs. I know for a fact that they do not like very much dust building up in said oil (dry/windy desert hunting) and are almost guaranteed to choke badly way before a proper Mauser is even getting warmed up. Again, if one takes good care of his semi auto, it should work fine to clobber deer and elk year after year. Lots of people seem to use them with success and how can a mostly Mauser man like me argue against success? The semi autos do seem to soak up recoil as I remember. Back when I owned various semi autos, including the three .30-06s mentioned, I liked them or I would not have bought or traded into them.

A man knows he's getting old when he'd much rather have one properly done Mauser than a big pile of semi autos of any description. I guess I'm getting to be a geezer. Guess I had better get out and do more hunting and fishing before I'm permenantly glued to some rocking chair on the front porch.

Was it Townsend Whelen? that said: "You can't go wrong with a .30-06".

Over and out.
Ard.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Hello Jim Rau,

Regarding the 7mm-08, I have heard it is a fine round. As you mentioned it's just about the ballistic twin of the 7x57. I will guess here that it was invented because Remington wanted to fit it into a short action (cheaper to make each rifle due to less metal in each one) and because they wanted to spike the chamber pressure and velocity right up to "the red line". That all too common desire to make a .300 Savage into a .308 and a .308 into a .30-06 and a .30-06 into a .300 Magnum, etc., etc., etc., is an unfortunate cultural flaw in the USA if you ask me. Probably many ancient rifles in 7x57 (and plenty of recent "pipe wrench and blow torch" rebarreled junkers as well) are in 7x57. Rermington probably did not want to pay law suits to people who blew up questionable weapons with the current trend in red hot factory ammo. Since the the 7mm-08 is so new, it's likely not to be found in so many questionable rifles and can therfore be loaded in factory ammo quite hot with less chance of "incidents".

When I worked one day a week at Great Northern Guns in Anchorage, I spoke with a man who had just returned from Namibia and he was "all aglow" about his experiences with the 7mm-08. Most of (not all of it) Namibia is very similar to much of Nevada, parts of Arizona and so forth. Wide open desert, with dry, boulder strewn mountains and steep, brushy canyons. Many shots are longish there. I wish I could recall what bullet he used but it was a hand load. I think it was a 140 grain of some sort but will have to see if I can find a note on it in my dung heap (cardboard boxes full of notebooks and other keepsake junk). He was saying that his rifle sacked all including the larger antelopes such as gemsbok (450 pounds-ish and very "impact resistant", even by African standards) and kudu (6oo+ pounds-ish) but not quite so tough as gemsbok supposedly.

Power is fine but accuracy is final.

Since I am not much of a varmint hunter like I used to be, I no longer lean towards the very small bore centerfire calibers much. A 6.5 or 7mm is about as small a rifle as I can use for my interest in big game these days. I mean by that; North American big game size animals. Even during my trips to Africa, I did not shoot anything over the size of a typical elk in body weight. In Namibia I used a .300 H&H and in South Africa I used a .375 H&H one trip and a .30-06 the last time. So far, a 7mm-08 would've bagged everything I had shot with the above calibers, perhaps not as quickly or dramatically as the .375 did but nonetheless, you get the idea. Zebra (the locals eat them over there, often singing and dancing brakes out when they receive the meat) are another bird altogether and I feel zebra require more punch than they look like they'd require. The 9.3/286 grain or .375/300 grain is not too much gun for zebra and perhaps about right if you ask me.

You are right, the fellow who's having a medical issue with recoil could do alot worse than a 7mm-08 but I guess he is set in his ways for .30 as his minimum and I respect that. I tend to lean toward "Use enough gun" as opposed to trying to see how large an animal I can take with the tinyest bullet ever invented or whatever. That proves not one single thing in my admittedly simple mind AND it is disrespectful to the animal. If I were to be dragged from the dungeon and shot at dawn, I'd rather get it with a huge shotgun slug than I would with a .22 Hornet, so to speak. I will guess my critters might feel about the same.

The 7mm has a great advantage over some other calibers in that heavier bullets for it made in the USA seem to be intended for 7mm Remington magnum velocity. Therefore, they are often quite tough. This is good for 7mm-08 shooters on big game. The majority of 7mm bullets by reputation hold together very well even when hitting a shoulder bone of elk and wild boar, etc. in the 7mm-08 and 7x57, etc. Again that recoil sensitive fellow could do alot worse than a 7mm-08 for general deer and elk in a tolerable recoil cartridge.

To answer your question, I live in Anchorage but am out of town for a short time until my wife graduates from a school here. (2nd career for her but I am happily retied).

Well any way, have a Merry Christmas.
Ard.
 
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