6.5 Grendel vs 6.8 SPC, 7.62 NATO & 5.56 NATO

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tx65 Discussion starter

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#2 · Feb 21, 2004

Here is a photo of the actual 6.5 Grendel next to a 223 Remington.

 

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Gowge

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#3 · Feb 21, 2004

I LIKE The 6.8mm SPC Remington

tx65, thanks for sharing this info on the newest cartridge from Remington! If you were building a bolt action hunting rifle for this cartridge, what barrel length would you choose & why? I had a 20" in mind... maybe an inch or so more? What action would you choose?

I like the possibilities the new Cartridge offers for hunting use... In particular, building one of the "Mini-Mauser" CZ style or SAKO Miniature bolt action rifles in a super-lightweight version with carbon wrapped barrel and synthetic stock, etc.

I had hoped, since the Remington® website now lists the new 6.8mm Rem SPC ammo with two different bullets, they might have decided to offer a special rifle for this new ammo - NO plans is their reply to my inquiry. They did say the ammo will be available thru all the usual distribution and retail channels, but NO rifles chambered in this round at this time... Maybe they have something really special in mind for this one - maybe not. Time will tell.

For anyone else interested, I've been following several forums and resources trying to learn more about this new cartridge over the past few months. I've copied some of the info and links here so you can check it out for yourself if you're so inclined...

If you visit the link below, you'll find information about both the Remington loads listed... They're both 115gr bullets, but the match ammo uses a MatchKing® BTHP.

Premier® Match (6.8mm Rem SPC)
Express® Core-Lokt® (6.8 Rem SPC)

http://www.remington.com/2004/new.htm

Remington has a ballistics comparison page that allows you to compare up to three different loads/calibers, which I found very handy. If you want to compare the new 6.8mm SPC to other cartridges, it only takes a minute. I also found it kinda' interesting when comparing the 260 Remington & 7mm-08...


http://www.remington.com/ammo/...s.htm

Alas, CZ USA says they also have NO plans to offer a rifle chambered for the 6.8SPC, although they are happy to sell CZ-527 Mini actions for custom rifles...

http://www.cz-usa.com/product.smallbore.php

Charles Daly seems to be the only importer/mfr that has shown any interest thus far... When I get information from them, I'll share it here. They were at the 2004 Shot Show and were supposed to examine the new cartridges and talk to Remington Arms Reps about it....

http://www.charlesdaly.com/HTM...d.asp

http://www.charlesdaly.com/HTM...i.asp


First hand observations, comments and some interesting pics following the 2004 SHOT SHOW in Vegas... Apparently Remington Arms had some Model 700s displayed in 6.8SPC with scopes, suppressors, 'pods, etc.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/top...81322

Midway USA will be selling this new ammo online:

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrow...bID=6

and.... everyone seems to have been waiting 'til after the Shot Show to release news and information about information on rifles for the caliber.

http://airbornecombatengineer.....html

and... from this thread, more info is revealed:

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum....html

THE 6.8 REMINGTON SPC OPERATES AT 10% LESS CHAMBER PRESSURE THAN THE 5.56MM.
IT USES SAME RECOIL SPRING AND BUFFER AS THE 5.56MM. NO CHANGES THERE.

THE FULL AUTO CYCLIC RATE OF EITHER A 16" OR 18" BARREL 6.8 REM SPC IS ( IN OUR UPPERS AT LEAST ) THE SAME AS OR SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN THAT OF THE 5.56MM.

WES

SSK 6.8mm info: http://www.sskindustries.com/atlantis/6.8.html
At this time, you can get 6.8 mm AR15's from:

Barrett: http://www.barrettrifles.com/

PRI: http://www.pri-mounts.com/

MSTN: http://www.MSTN.BIZ/

For non-AR15 style semi-auto 6.8 mm rifles, Robinson Arms and another larger manufacturer have expressed interest in producing them once the ammo is readily available from Remington in early 2004.

The elusive Remington 6.8 mm 20" LTR appears to be delayed again, this time until late 2004.

************************************************************

".......A .30 caliber SPC version was tested--as this did not perform as well as other SPC variants, it was not vigorously pursued. The 6.8 mm and 7 mm SPC versions offered the best terminal performance from 0 to 500 yards, however, the 6.8 mm was a bit more accurate. For pure long range competition, a 6.5 mm variant offers nice external ballistics, however, for combat use at CQB to 500 yard distances, the 6.8 mm is a better choice. Beyond around 500-600 yards, a precision rifle in .30 cal or .338 cal will likely prove superior.

Different bullet diameters from 6 mm to 7.62 mm were tested, using multiple bullet types, shapes, and weights from 90 to 140 gr--the 6.8 mm was selected because it offered the BEST combination of combat accuracy, reliability, and terminal performance for 0-500 yard engagements in an M4 size package."

I have to wonder if maybe this 6.5mm version wouldn't be a better hunting round in a tiny, lightweight bolt action rifle & carbon wrapped barrel?


GOOD LUCK!

 

G

Gowge

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#4 · Feb 21, 2004

Forgot To MENTION - Reamers & Gauges Available!

Forgot to mention - reamers & gauges are available now.

SEE:

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000661.html

"To those of you who may be interested, Remington has approved the release of certain 6.8 SPC information, and Clymer has been selling their 6.8 SPC Reamers since January 30, 2004.
We have purchased a finish reamer and three headspace gauges from Clymer and are currently having a 6.8 SPC benchrest rifle built. The costs of the Clymer items are as follows:

*F 6.8 SPC REAMER $110
*GO 6.8 HEADSPACE GAUGE $30.00
*NO GO 6.8 HEADSPACE GAUGE $30.00
*FIELD 6.8 HEADSPACE GAUGE $30.00

*Plus shipping (and tax if applicable).

You can order the 6.8 SPC items by phone or FAX.
Clymer’s Phone numbers are:
Toll Free 1-877-REAMERS 1-877-(732-6377),
Local (248)-853-5555, FAX (248) -853-1530.
Clymer accepts both Visa and Mastercard.
Shipping via UPS - Standard Ground Service will cost $8.50.
UPS one day air is available ($30.00).

IMPORTANT NOTE: The 6.8 SPC is not yet SAAMI approved.

6.8 SPC Ammunition: Not yet available to the general public.
6.8 SPC Brass: Not yet available from anyone.
6.8 SPC Reloading Dies: Not yet available from anyone.
6.8 SPC Brass Forming Dies: Not yet available from anyone.

We are in the process of having 6.8 brass forming dies and reloading dies built.

The die manufacturer has asked that we not disclose the source until sufficient quantities are available.

We checked with RCBS, Hornady and Dillon and none of them have 6.8 reloading dies available.

Tom Burczynski"

 

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tx65 Discussion starter

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#5 · Feb 21, 2004 (Edited)

Gowge,

Thanks for your post, The 6.5 Grendel is not from Remington, it is a project from Alexander Arms and Lapua. The 6.8 SPC was included in the comparison chart since people have asked for comparitive ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel to the 6.8 Remington, 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO.

I have no plans to build a rifle in 6.8 Rem SPC since I have done wild cats in the past off the 30 Remington case in the past that did not meet my performance requirements. Therefore, I can't help you with guidance on building a bolt gun.

In speaking with Remington at the SHOT show, they said they have no rifles planned at this time which concurs with earlier comments made by them that it would be late 2004 at the earliest for any rifle release. In the main Remington booth, the 6.8 SPC was one of many new ammunition offerings in a small case among many cases in their large booth. The 6.8 SPC ammo samples given to me by Remington all had staked primers which will require crimped primer reloading practices such as decrimping the primer pocket. It will be interesting to see what performance the 6.8 SPC will deliver when handloading without a staked primer or when using powders available to the handloader since I was told by Remington the powder was a special mix.

A federal agent inquired as to brass for reloading the 6.8 Rem SPC and was told it would be 6-9 months for it to become available which is fairly common from manufacturers such as Remington and Winchester (want to sell loaded ammo first). Also, neither Hornady or Sierra included the 115 grain bullets loaded in the 6.8 in their new product releases for 2004 and indicated no plans to offer those to the federal agent who spoke to Remington about brass for reloading.

As far as AR15 type rifles, Barrett and PRI had models of their 6.8 rifles at the show, but that was about it. Through one of my distributors, the Barrett rifle will end up with a street price in the $2100-$2400 range. Barrett literature says they will have a 10 and 5 round magazine, but no one I knew saw those magazines at the SHOT show. The distributor imformed me the Barrett rifles wont be shipping until mid-March. From what I have seen, MSTN is offering a 6.8 upper starting at $1295.00 minus bolt carrier and charging handle. They have reported on AR15.com shipping of some uppers.

As far as the 6.5 Grendel, a number of bolt action manufacturers have made inquires into producing bolt guns for it. Unfortunately, I cannot disclose the names of those companies at this time.

6.5 Grendel Ammunition & Brass will be available through Midway and Cabelas is adding the 6.5 Grendel to their product line.

Alexander Arms begins shipping 6.5 Grendel rifles in 2 weeks along with uppers, ammo, brass, dies and magazines. Ordering is available online at http://www.competitionshooting.com

 

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Gowge

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#6 · Feb 21, 2004

Thanks again for the info. I followed the Grendl threads here and elsewhere since last year too, and it's an interesting cartridge to be sure. I like the shorter 6.8mm SPC 'cos it will fit in the smallest bolt actions for a very compact & lightweight rifle. It might go under 5lbs without scope. From the performance estimates I've seen thus far, it would be adequate for the smaller deer we see in the South, as well as pigs, etc...

GOOD LUCK!

 

T

tx65 Discussion starter

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#7 · Feb 21, 2004 (Edited)

Gowge,

Without divulging the bolt action manufacturers interested in producing bolt guns in 6.5 Grendel, I can tell you the 6.5 Grendel is optimal in micro-actions such as the SAKO, CZ, Mini-Mauser as well as actions from Nesika and other competition makers.

Actually, the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC have the same overall cartridge length since they were both designed for use in the AR15 (2.255") The 6.5 Grendel will work with bullets up to 144 grains while keeping within the 2.255 length...actually the picture posted of a 6.5 Grendel next to a .223 Remington is a 144 grain bullet with a .636 BC loaded magazine length.

 

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2Bits

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#8 · Feb 23, 2004

I think that the 6.5 Grendel is what our troops should have been using in Viet Nam instead of that misfit .223 caliber.
Now for whatever that is worth some 40 years later down the road. I still say to this day that the M-14 was a better combat, battelfield weapon bar none.

 

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Chris R

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#9 · Nov 17, 2004

Given that the verdict is still out on the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC, has anyone developed a 6.5 variant of Remington's SPC cartridge? It seems to me that SPC brass is likely to become more readily available and cheaper than the Lapua produced Grendel. It would be interesting to see how a 6.5 SPC variant stacks up against the Grendel. Has anyone tried this?

 

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Gowge

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#10 · Nov 17, 2004

6.5mm Already TESTED

Chris, the 6.5mm bullet was tested in the SPC case and found wanting in the COL that the designers required. The 6.5 bullets were simply too lightweight.

In a sporting rifle where a longer magazine could be employed, a longer COL with a heavier 6.5mm bullet would be possible. Keep in mind, the case capacity of the SPC is possibly less than the short & fat Lapua/Russian case.

ALL these bullet diameters below were tested in the SPC.

 

C

Chris R

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#11 · Nov 17, 2004 (Edited)

Thanks for that. In my haste I didn't read your former post. It seems to me that unless Alexander Arms goes into mass production of the Grendel and opens up other brass production sources apart from Lapua, that the 6.8 SPC, with Remington's backing, will win out at the end of the day. It therefore looks like the 6.5 Grendel will sadly remain a specialty round of high-power and benchrest shooters and nothing more.

 

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DWARREN123

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#12 · Nov 18, 2004

The 243 or 6mm was available without a lot of R&D. It would have done everything they wanted, they even played around with a M14 243.

 

mattsbox99

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#13 · Nov 18, 2004

Then they wouldn't have had such a great excuse to waste millions of dollars.

I like every caliber and I'm excited to see more available.

 

m141a

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#14 · Feb 9, 2006

AS with ANY military caliber, the 6.8 will have a good following and a good run in civilian terms once in production for the masses.
Look back:
30 Krag
30-06
762x51 [.308]
.223

And now just think of the calibers that "spun off" those above....25-06, 243, 7mm-08 are just a few that come to mind using the existing caliber casing as a start.

I too have read the tests and runs on the 6.8spc....looks like a winner so far.

 

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snoke

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#15 · Feb 13, 2006

The 6.5 and 6.8 are dead issues. Only a few men ever thought otherwise. If you'll take a look at HighPower, you'll notice that the 223 wins the 600 yd matches nearly all the time, even beating out wildcat rds in bolt actions. It's even doing quite well at 1000 yds matches, believe it or not. They are using a 1 in 6.5" rifling twist, 90 gr VLD bullets, at 2800 fps in 28" barrels. The 223 is a truly amazing little cartridge, and the AR-15 is an astoundingly accurate rifle.

 

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Bird Dog

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#16 · Feb 13, 2006

I did a tour in Afghanistan. The M-4 carbine is a great close quarter weapon, but I would much rather have something in 7.62. As for the M249 SAW (5.56) - it's weak. The 7.62x54 PK machine gun common to that area beats it to he!!. So does the M240 (7.62).

When the war first started over there, there was an entire battalion of the 101st Airborne caught in a 3 day running firefight in the mountains. The only kills they could achieve were with their 81MM mortars and from a .50 Barrett Canadian sniper team that was attached to them. The range and wind made their M-4 carbines and M249s nearly worthless. The enemy figured this out quick and and backed off to 600-800 meters. Their PKs and 7.62x54 sniper rifles could range that far, but the Airborne's 5.56s could not.

Following this, the commander of the 101st called back to the states and had every available M-14 to be found in depots shipped to Afghanistan for his division. This is absolutley true. What more proof do we need than this that the 5.56 can't cut it?

We need a 7.62 based individual and squad automatic weapon for our troops. One common deadly round for both. This 6.8 business is a waste as far as I am concerned.

 

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snoke

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#17 · Feb 14, 2006 (Edited by Moderator)

Wrong. The troops MISS with tens of thousands of rds of rifle ammo for every hit that they get. So the bulk, weight, and cost of rifle ammo is a huge issue. The power and penetration of the 5.56 is adequate, IF you get the hits.

*****the military is not going to change, based upon your disagreement. The only thing you CAN change is your own choice of gear and tactics, and your own levels of ability. The sound suppressor, light weight, GI ammo, mags, parts, one hand usage, conceelment (while disassembled) .22lr conversion units, night sights, scopes, forend mounted bipods, etc, of the current M4 type of 223 rifle are all much more important to the survivalist than the supposed range, power and penetration advantages of the .308.

If shtf is the issue, only a fool would be in open country in daylight. In thick cover or at night, the sound suppressed M4 is superior to the 308, for all the reasons listed above.

 

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Bird Dog

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#18 · Feb 14, 2006 (Edited)

Very wrong. If you like I can dig up the link to a Marine AAR from Iraq in which they documented multiple hits on insurgents that would not drop. They raked the M-4 as being totally inadequate. The combination of the shorter barrel with the new heavier 68gr bullet brought the velocity down too much and the terminal performance just wasn't there. The one thing the original M-16 and its 55 gr bullet combo had going for it was the high velocity shock power. The new 14.5" barrel and the heavier bullet combo totally lacks that.

AND: The 101st episode I talked about above was absolutely true. I guess your saying the entire 101st AB and the Marine Corps can't hit anything unless they have thousands of rounds to spray downrange?

And you said survivalist. What is that? We're talking about units conducting offensive and defensive operations and needing the right tools to do it. Survivalist??? You must have watched Red Dawn too many times. And by the way, sometimes the mission dictates that these units will be in open country in daylight. Welcome to the real world Rambo.

 

Jack Monteith

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#19 · Feb 14, 2006

Note snoke's status. He won't be back.

Bye
Jack

 

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Bird Dog

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#20 · Feb 14, 2006 (Edited)

Jack Monteith said:

Note snoke's status. He won't be back.

Bye
Jack

Click to expand...

Well with misconceptions like "one hand usage, concealment (while disassembled)", his points didn't add a lot to the military discussion.

 

mattsbox99

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#21 · Feb 14, 2006

Tens of thousands of misses for one hit? Thats a BILLION shots for every hundred hits... which might only result in 30 to 40 kills.

Our troops are just standing in the middle of the desert with their thumbs up their butts waiting for the Iraqis to shoot first...

Its a good thing we have good moderators like you guys to keep the fools from sticking around... your work is much appreciated!

 

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heysay

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#22 · Feb 22, 2006

Ive heard that we are actually buy rounds of 5.56 from Isreal!

Also the 5.56 round was only adopted for its wounding power. the philosophy was that if you were to wound one guy it would take two more out of the fight to attend to the wounded guy. However the present is not such the case b/c you are dealing with stoned/fanatical/suicidal people who really don't care and when a guy gets shot the man next to them just takes their gun and keeps shooting.

Besides look at the situation we had in Somalia, the only way US troops actually killed them was if they hit them in the spine or the head or unload 1/3rd of the mag.

Personally though I like the 6.8 SPC with its power greater than the 5.56 and less recoil than the 7.62

 

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Cozy

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#23 · Aug 15, 2006

Heysay, I think you must look at the wound channel a bullet makes also in order to get the facts of trauma a certain bullet diameter or weight will exhibit on the human body's flesh. The reaction by the enemy hit with such bullets etc.

I'll tell you this true piece of a story, told to me by a good friend of mine, who fought in the Viet Nam War. He showed me several pictures back in the late 60's, that were taken of VC soldiers laying dead on the ground after a fire fight.

He stated that some of these VC would continue to run straight ahead, for what seemed like forever after being hit with several shots from GI's .223 calibers. I kept a picture of one of those VC soldiers after his shirt had been taken off, showing 8 holes in his upper thoracic area of this body. I was told this soldier traveled over 35 yards after being hit the first time. He kept firing his weapon the whole time my friend stated to me back then.

I will say because of delivered energy to target, that 2 hits from a 30-06 would have put him down in his tracks for keeps. Perhaps just one hit in the same area hard to say really. I have spoken to lots of Vets small bullet issue and have never got any agruments from any of them who were in actiual combat. All I spoke to, wished they would have had another caliber weapon in their hands.

Now also to make a point! Hitting paper targets at 400, 500 or a 1000 yards, does not make the bullet adequate on stopping the enemy close to mid-range, especially when drugs are in their system. I'll take an M-14 anyday over the Mattell wonder gun.

 

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reginhild

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#24 · Feb 3, 2007

Alexander Arms has received 180,000 rounds of the 6.5 Grendel Wolf Gold brass cased ammo. The first produstion run was 10 million rounds and other retailers should be getting theirs soon. The Wolf Gold 6.5 Grendel is going for $10.99 a box at Cabela's.

Wolf is also making steel cased 6.5 Grendel ammo that is supposed to arrive 2nd Quarter 2007. This should be in the $7 range or less based on other Wolf ammo pricing and the Wolf Gold price for 6.5 Grendel.

There is a good article on the 6.5 Grendel in the March issue of Shooting Times - Les Baer model. Once again shooting 1/2 MOA.

For comparison (due to subject of this thread) there is an article on the 6.8 SPC in the new Guns & Ammo but the accuracy is horrendous - 4 to 5 MOA groups at 100 yards.

 

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mongoose

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#25 · May 29, 2007

it seems to me that the 5.56 has three strengths, mild recoil, ability to carry many rounds, and accuracy...

i will remove accuracy because it is an advantage shared by the 7.62 and the 6.5 grendel...

it only remains to decide if the sacrifice of energy is too great to warrant the benefit...

with regard to both long range combat and urban combat with abundant light cover, the answer is yes...

granted, a mini sized ar-15 has its time and place, but for a standard combat rifle, it seems to me the solution is a rifle chambered in .260...

with the greater capacity for powder over 6.5 or 6.8, it is a more versatile round...

it offers the accuracy of the 7.62, 6.5, 5.56...
higher ammo capacity than 7.62
less recoil than the 7.62
significantly more energy than 6.5 or 6.8 both within 100 yards and beyond 500...

only downside is price... forgetting that for a second (is that possible?)... should i find myself either in combat or in some shtf scenerio where the threats facing me could range from close to far, in the flesh, or behind a car...

i'll take a 19" sa58 fal in .260...

btw--- if anyone is still reading... i am living in california, and considering purchasing my first rifle...

the cali legal sa58 fal's are fed with stripper clips... this doesn't seem like a big disadvantage to me, as i am not in front line combat with the armed services... and the idea of being able to top off with individual rounds appeals to me... anyone know if these rifle suffer from the same 'PING!!' problem as the garands did? is this endemic to stripper clips, or just a peculiarity of the garand??

thanks... this has been my first post... i am utterly new to the 'world' of shooting... thanks...

s.

 

J

jpattersonnh

2,345 posts · Joined 2005

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#26 · May 29, 2007

Mongoose, The M1 did not use Stripper clips. A stripper loads ammo to an internal, or external mag. The Garand uses en bloks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand_rifle
The only other rifle to use en blok clips (that I know of) was the M95 Steyr, strait pull, bolt rifle. Jim