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  #1  
Old 04-13-2017, 05:00 PM
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Question Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun


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So what if I'm a coward: confused: After reading a post here in another forum about the aftermath of household fires I started cleaning & oil'n. Sure enough quite a few of the actions were stuck. I pulled out the model 12 and figured it was about time to get down to it all the way. I found a heck of a illustrated step x step at SW first posted in 2014. Great stuff! Anyway my model 12 is a bit different than the one in that topic as it has the heat shield, the bayonet attachment, the regular black Winchester butt plate and a "G.H.D." within a box with the crossed cannons on the stock. My situation is that the bayonet attachment is sleeved onto the barrel with 3 heavy screws; I took them out and was not comfortable using more force than a slight tap to move the sleeve. I couldn't get them to budge. The heat shield is attached to the bayonet housing and I'd really like to clean under that sucker. It's held in place by some small screws that have been ground down to remove the slot. Is there a secret to getting these things off? I suppose I could hit it a bit harder but not on the kitchen table Anyone got the scoop??
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:05 PM
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You have a very collectable gun with historical significance. The military riveted the parts on with no intention of them coming off. Please don't tear it up trying.
Gil Martin, nachogrande and Timc like this.
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  #3  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:48 PM
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Never never ever! I could tell the job was done with care. A bit rough but it looks to be done well. Any ideas on how to clean under the heat shield? No rust or corrosion...just dust I was aware it is a nice gun mfg in 46'-47' but all the ones I've come across in my quest for info differ to a degree and there's quite a few around. I know the one I have also fires as quick as I can pump if the trigger is held down. Did the military do that too?
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  #4  
Old 04-13-2017, 08:20 PM
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Yes I believe you have a model 12 trench gun. They are very valuable. They do not have a trigger disconnector so they will fire if you hold the trigger down while pumping. It might have letters on the right side below the ejector port U.S. followed by a flaming shell. They were mostly used by Marines. Congratulation on your nice shotgun.

Last edited by 44GUY; 04-13-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:39 PM
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Very kind of you to say 44guy. You are correct about the letters and the flaming shell on the receiver. It's valuable to me because I've had it for probably 30+ years and got it from my friend/gun mentor back in my crazy days. In that time I've put maybe a box of 00's through her 20 years ago and shes' been in the safe, out for a clean/oil now & then since then. She's built like a tank! I'd be willin to take some pic's to share somewhere. I'm new here..but I would really appreciate any information, or sources of info on this gun.
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  #6  
Old 04-18-2017, 04:16 PM
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It is nice to here the shot gun has special value to you. I have some guns that came to me from a family member or did something special and I would not be interested in selling them either. There is some good information on the web. I was interested in model 97 trench shot guns and I found several fakes. I actually found the information on your model 12on the web. Until then I did not know the model 12 trench gun didn't have the trigger disconnecter.
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  #7  
Old 04-18-2017, 04:30 PM
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All Model 12s fire on bolt close IF the safety is OFF and the trigger is pulled. The disconnector is what cams off the back of the bolt and fires the gun. The same applies to the Ithaca M-37.

I had four Model 12 riot guns in the arms room in Korea but had eight old wore out Savage Model 540 (?) pumps with hand guards and bayonet lugs.
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:18 PM
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You got me, your correct that Model 12s do not normally have trigger disconnectors. My experience with these is not resent and I was relying on my ageing memory. Lately I have been using other shotguns and this part of my information was in error.

Doesn't browning make a reproduction of the model 12 with a disconnector in it?
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Doesn't browning make a reproduction of the model 12 with a disconnector in it?
GOOD question! I've seen the repo Model 12 and Model 42 but never thought to test them. I very seriously DOUBT it operates differently than the original.

Just to be correct--The Model 12 DOES have a disconnector. That's why it only fires when the bolt is closed. (As it becomes totally closed.)

Anybody got a new Browning (Japanese made) Model 12 or 42?
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2017, 09:35 AM
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Somewhere during Johnson, Nixon, and Ford presidents the ATF asked all gun makers to remove the pumpfire
feature from firearms.

My 75 Ithaca does not have that feature.
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  #11  
Old 04-22-2017, 09:51 AM
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Jaguarexk120-- That is false for a fact. It is a matter of design that actually makes the guns much SAFER than the most popular models that don't fire as the slide is closed.

If you have a parts drawing I can tell you how your gun is different and retains the hammer on disconnect.
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:50 AM
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Ithaca does not use a disconnector, never did!

In the new guns if the trigger is held back the hammer will follow the bolt as it goes into lockup.

I know the Ithaca and the Winchester Model 12 and maybe a Savage model will/would pumpfire if the trigger is held back. They were made that way.

Those guns were designed by the best engineers in the world and when people took responsibility in their shooting.

Today when a mishap happens it is everything at fault but the shooter.
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:55 AM
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The "Disconnector" keeps the gun from firing out of battery. It is the disconnector that fires a Model 12 and 37 and many others.

I AM interested in your new Ithaca that 'follows down'. That would be a different design that I'd like to see.
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:01 AM
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Please go to the Ithaca web site and look in the Ithaca store.

Look at parts internal and a parts diagram will come up showing all internal parts.

As I have said if the trigger is held back, the sear will not engage the hammer.
The hammer will not stay in the cocked position, and the hammer will follow the bolt
as it moves into battery.

Last edited by jaguarxk120; 04-22-2017 at 11:04 AM.
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:13 AM
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There is no reference to a 'Model 75' on the website or in the parts books.

What keeps the slide closed with the hammer cocked?

Here's the Model 37 in every position and the Model 12 at the end.
Attached Thumbnails
Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37-cocked-exposed.jpg   Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37-fired-exposed.jpg   Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37all-parts.jpg   Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37jmb-elegance-design.jpg   Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37safe-close-up.jpg  

Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m12disconnector-hooked.jpg  
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-22-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:18 AM
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I do not think I made reference to a model 75.

On the parts list "Part number 27 Slide stop" holds the slide, part number 14, in position pushing

the bolt into lock up.

Last edited by jaguarxk120; 04-22-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
My 75 Ithaca does not have that feature.
My mistake. I was selling Model 37s in 1975 and a service center for them. I assumed you had some new model I'd never heard of.

If your gun follows down it means the slide stop spring is broken.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:36 AM
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No, all the new guns are that way.

Ithaca removed the second sear or the little projection on the hammer. The slide stop did have a small hook on it that locked into the projection on the hammer. That small hook on the slide stop is not there on the new guns. The small projection(on the hammer) is not there on the newer guns.

The hook on the slide stop held the hammer back until the bolt was in full lock up. As the slide moved forward it released the slide stop, that moved slightly releasing the hammer IF the trigger was held back.

Last edited by jaguarxk120; 04-22-2017 at 11:47 AM.
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  #19  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:54 AM
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I've never seen a hammer without a disconnect hook. I ran a shop that was an Ithaca service center in late 75 and have probably seen a thousand M37s but not one like you say.

SO---IF you keep the trigger pulled until the slide starts forward, you load a live shell but the hammer follows down on it? Then the only way to fire the gun is to throw away that live one load another?

Does it only count on the rear of the locking slide to block the fall of the hammer if the gun is out of battery?

I'd have to see how they solved those problem to fully understand how that could work.

BUT, here's a good place to show a dramatic difference in how a gun is made that tells why a Model 12 was more expensive to build and buy than an Ithaca 37.

The diamond shape is on the side of a Model 12 hammer. That's the disconnector lug. Notice it is part of the hammer and was machined in two directions to isolate that 'island'. That's EXPENSIVE to do but you know the heat treat is exactly right and you don't have to worry about wear or breakage.

The Ithaca hook is silver soldered into a hole in the hammer.

Remington uses a different system and the hammer is stamped metal.
Attached Thumbnails
Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m12-disconnector-holds-hammer-when-bolt-open.jpg   Winchester Mdl 12 Trench Gun-m37jmb-elegance-design.jpg  
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-22-2017 at 12:53 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-22-2017, 12:15 PM
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Ithaca made many refinements to the old Remington 17 pump.

The projection on the side of the hammer is a pump fire sear, not used to disconnect the trigger from the hammer. There is no way that can happen. If the trigger is held back with that sear in place the hammer is released when the slide stop goes into position.

YES if the trigger is pulled on newer guns the hammer follows the bolt home and the gun will have to be cycled to load a fresh shell into the chamber.

If the slide is moved back slightly, the back edge of the slide touches the hammer moving it away from the firing pin.

The Winchester Model 12 is a marvel of engineering, it uses almost every type of spring made.
Many of the parts have to be hand fitted and that was the big draw back to the M12, COST. At the end of Winchester's production run they lost money on every M12 made and sold.

It's too bad that in todays world stampings and die cast parts are the way of many gun makers. And guns are made by assemblers, not gun smiths.
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