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Discussion Starter #1
Just curious to see what y'all think about this. Specifically 180 grain hollowpoint in .45 acp and 280 grain hollow point in 10mm. The .45 being 11.43mm in metric and the 10mm being 10.16 the same as the .40 if I have done the calculations correctly. Wondering which one has better penetration power.
 

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The Shadow
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I don't think a 280gr bullet exists for the 10mm;):p

Unfortunately it isn't that straightforward. The 45 is fairly easy, as that was the standard (velocity-wise) that bullets were built to. The 40 call stuff was mostly built for the S&W, so when driven to honest 10mm velocities things tend to get a little "soft". If you are talking only factory ammo, most 10 loads are loaded to S&W pressures.
 

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It's easier to compare the 10mm to the .40 S&W, since they use the same bullets and close to the same pressure.

Case Capacity for 10mm is .95 cc, and .69 cc for the .40. 10mm launches 180 gr JHP at about 1300 fps vs 1000 fps for the .40.
 

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I don't personally see the comparison as apples to apples.

About as close as I could get with a quick search of published loads is comparing a 45 acp 200 gr. jacketed bullet with Longshot produces a published velocity of 1010 fps. 10mm running the same powder with the same weight jacketed bullet is published at 1178 fps.

Both will definitely leave a mark, I'd personally choose the 10mm and not just because of the velocity. I'm just not a big fan of 45 acp, mainly because of the issues associated with getting JHP's to run reliably in many of the 1911's without having to have them worked on, and even then...

SMOA
 

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I thought there would be lots of threads on this forum approximating this subject, but I'm not finding them. Virtually nothing comes up on a search for 10mm alone or vs anything. I don't compare it to a .45 ACP because there is no comparison.

10mm is incredible, but .40 JHP bullets are generally made to work at .40 S&W velocities. If you back up 200 yards they work perfectly out of 10mm.

180 gr Gold Dots are pretty explosive, but hard cast bullets with a big meplat are stunning performers.
 

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The Shadow
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10mm vs 45 acp??

Not anything here to truly compare. I own both and both have their own purposes.

My Glock 40 is my go to woods gun with a gunfighters inc. Kenai Chest Holster. That handles 700. ftlbs of muzzle energy comfortably.

The 45 acp is one of the most popular carry guns with lots of ballistic evidence in vivo on why it works.

Both calibers have been used for carry and both for woods protection, but clearly they differ in their utilities.
 

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All else being equal, the 10 will have better penetration every single time...no matter what. It's science and it's simple science.

There are a lot of questions that remain unanswered, and a lot of situations that defy what we think we know, but a 200gr .40 of equal construction in equal media will penetrate more than a .451 bullet of the same construction in the same media at the same velocity EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Add the extra 1-200 fps that a 10 has over a 45 at most bullet weights and it becomes more pronounced.

Is it more better? I can't say for sure. Will it provide more penetration? Yes, it will.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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With like weight bullets yes, but Newton's first law tells us that a heavier object will react longer. So with bullets of weight in proportion to caliber and subsequent velocity, the 45ACP wins. If velocity makes you giggle, then the 10mm wins.

Ballistic gel is not the true test of a caliber's worth.

Nor is comparing the 40S&W and 10mm. That's like comparing the 38 Special and 357 magnum.

RJ
 

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With like weight bullets yes, but Newton's first law tells us that a heavier object will react longer. So with bullets of weight in proportion to caliber and subsequent velocity, the 45ACP wins. If velocity makes you giggle, then the 10mm wins.

Ballistic gel is not the true test of a caliber's worth.

Nor is comparing the 40S&W and 10mm. That's like comparing the 38 Special and 357 magnum.

RJ
You might want to take another angle on handgun cartridge effectiveness. Newton had gravity wired. No one has a dusted (PCP) or tweaked (meth) suspect wired. Adrenaline can cause especially mentally ill suspects to soak up a lotta lead. Science is obliterated when confronting a dusted or tweaked bad guy with greatly diminished cranial function. They could be long dead before they hit dirt. Knowing what I know, which ain't mush except for what I know, the best way to respond to dusters and tweakers is not respond unless skedaddling ain't an option. Were I to confront a duster or tweaker, I'd be outta there while 911'ing local cops.

There's a persistent 'net myth about the 10MM. The FBI firearms & cartridge tests scientifically proved that 10MM (.40 cal) was most efficacious with 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS. More velocity was diminishing returns. Bureaucrats' brains got to thinking, and they got it right: the 10MM case could be shortened to achieve optimum .40 cal results, and the shortened case would function in standard capacity (I refused to use the term "high capacity magazines") magazines. Hence, birth of the most excellent cartridge: the .40 S&W.

In another application, my opinion, which ain't yet attained 2 bits' value, is the 10MM in a 1911-A1 handgun is perched atop of top tier wilderness handgun cartridges. 9 220 grain 10MM rounds at max velocity with another 8 ready to go inside a few seconds would convince the meanest critter of North America's mean critters that it chose its dining menu option poorly. If archers kill mean critters every year with arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a 220 grain 10MM bullet has to be exponentially more effective.

I know its fun to discuss handguns & handgun cartridges, but it's academic w/o considering bad guy variables, and bad guys have a lot of variables: CNS short circuiting drugs on board and the very real possibility of more than one bad guy skews the heck outta handgun and cartridge selection, and would've caused Newton to reevaluate his scientific conclusions.

BTW: an interesting factoid: esteemed scientists have named Newton the greatest of all scientists, Einstein included. In fact, much of Einstein's work has come under scientific scrutiny. Einstein was a clerk at the US Patent Office. Many scientists have intimated that Einstein stole "his" ideas from filed patents. I do know Einstein ripped off Princeton University to the tune of 150k, which was big money when American money had value.

Dr Michio Kaku has said that gravity is such a complex scientific concept that many physicists holding Ph.D's do not completely understand it. Sir Issac Newton had it wired.
 

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Dr Michio Kaku has said that gravity is such a complex scientific concept that many physicists holding Ph.D's do not completely understand it. Sir Issac Newton had it wired.
I have most of Kaku's published stuff, and have cruised Newtonian physics since I was in my teens, along with several other well known physicists, Einstein, Witten, Feynman, Hawking, etc. None of them ever stated they knew what gravity actually was. They all knew how it affected most of the mass in the universe, but not all. :)
 

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You might want to take another angle on handgun cartridge effectiveness. Newton had gravity wired. No one has a dusted (PCP) or tweaked (meth) suspect wired. Adrenaline can cause especially mentally ill suspects to soak up a lotta lead. Science is obliterated when confronting a dusted or tweaked bad guy with greatly diminished cranial function. They could be long dead before they hit dirt. Knowing what I know, which ain't mush except for what I know, the best way to respond to dusters and tweakers is not respond unless skedaddling ain't an option. Were I to confront a duster or tweaker, I'd be outta there while 911'ing local cops.

There's a persistent 'net myth about the 10MM. The FBI firearms & cartridge tests scientifically proved that 10MM (.40 cal) was most efficacious with 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS. More velocity was diminishing returns. Bureaucrats' brains got to thinking, and they got it right: the 10MM case could be shortened to achieve optimum .40 cal results, and the shortened case would function in standard capacity (I refused to use the term "high capacity magazines") magazines. Hence, birth of the most excellent cartridge: the .40 S&W.

In another application, my opinion, which ain't yet attained 2 bits' value, is the 10MM in a 1911-A1 handgun is perched atop of top tier wilderness handgun cartridges. 9 220 grain 10MM rounds at max velocity with another 8 ready to go inside a few seconds would convince the meanest critter of North America's mean critters that it chose its dining menu option poorly. If archers kill mean critters every year with arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a 220 grain 10MM bullet has to be exponentially more effective.

I know its fun to discuss handguns & handgun cartridges, but it's academic w/o considering bad guy variables, and bad guys have a lot of variables: CNS short circuiting drugs on board and the very real possibility of more than one bad guy skews the heck outta handgun and cartridge selection, and would've caused Newton to reevaluate his scientific conclusions.

BTW: an interesting factoid: esteemed scientists have named Newton the greatest of all scientists, Einstein included. In fact, much of Einstein's work has come under scientific scrutiny. Einstein was a clerk at the US Patent Office. Many scientists have intimated that Einstein stole "his" ideas from filed patents. I do know Einstein ripped off Princeton University to the tune of 150k, which was big money when American money had value.

Dr Michio Kaku has said that gravity is such a complex scientific concept that many physicists holding Ph.D's do not completely understand it. Sir Issac Newton had it wired.

Hunting arrows weight is the range of 380-560 gr but the critical difference between a blunt bullet and an arrow is the razor blades used as tips that cut through flesh and even bone. The force per sq inch with a hunting arrow at the tip is IMMENSE. Most hits are through and through even on the largest predators such as brown bears.

They cut and slice by razor sharp arrow heads designed for maximum blood loss.

So it is truly apples and oranges to compare the physics of bullets and arrows on your targeted critter. The sharpness of the arrow head reduces the friction factor exponentially when entering an animal. Two totally different mechanisms at work here on a physics level.

Just as the pressure generated by the tooth of a great white shark is concentrated on the razor sharp tip of its teeth, so likewise with the arrow head vs the much more blunt, in comparison, bullet even at higher velocities.

The KE of an arrow is not the operative issue, it is the reduction of friction entering the flesh.

https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/...netic-energy-determining-arrows-killing-power
 

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The type of cutting edge is an important aspect of archery hunting, the KE in the range of 70 ft-lbs is puny and compared to even modest handgun loads.

Once again, arrows and bullets kill by different mechanisms of damage. Kind of like comparing a half back and full back. One is by fitness and cutting ability through a crowd, the other by pure brute force.

https://www.g5outdoors.com/which-broadheads-should-you-use-and-why/
 
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