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Lastly, the reason the FBI developed the FBI load was due to female and smaller males who had difficulty handling the full power 10mm ammo. It has and continues to be a wonderful round in the 700 ft-lbs muzzle energy range which is why I have placed it as my current woods gun with proper ammo.

Many use it for carry with tactical ammo with lower recoil and flash than what is used for woods defense. It is by far one of the most versatile rounds and that is why it is making a resurgence.

Comparing the 45 to the 10mm is quite an unfair comparison much like comparing the 9mm to the 380. Both hath their own niche. I own both and have different purposes for them. It works for me.

However, in retrospect, if I only had enough money or was limited to only one handgun, I would go with the 10mm which is versatile enough to suit multiple purposes well. Just as the 30-06 can handle the largest and most dangerous game in North America and at 130 gr, small game as well. The 10mm is at home with FBI loads to full 220 gr hardcast ammo at the highest velocities by Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap.

The 45 acp on the other hand seems to like 230 gr bullets the best and it remains one of the most popular carry calibers. It is a great and well proven handgun round, but it is not as versatile by any measure as the 10mm.
 

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Lastly, the reason the FBI developed the FBI load was due to female and smaller males who had difficulty handling the full power 10mm ammo.

This has to be the biggest 'net myth ever created. I know exactly why the FBI adopted the .40 S&W & it had zero to with this malarkey. The reason was published in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.



Call the FBI's Firearms Training Division at Quantico. You'll get the straight scoop there.
 

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Everything I ever read on the subject said the reason they wanted the 40 was because of overpenetration by other calibers especially in airplanes and crowds. I've had a number of 40's, they really lack penetration.
 

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This has to be the biggest 'net myth ever created. I know exactly why the FBI adopted the .40 S&W & it had zero to with this malarkey. The reason was published in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.



Call the FBI's Firearms Training Division at Quantico. You'll get the straight scoop there.
Agreed.

There were two really good reasons.

1. The cartridge delivered the best consistent penetration. Meaning it didn’t under penetrate and was likely to never over penetrate. It most consistently made it through the vitals and either stops right before it would exit or exits with almost nothing left.

2. It fits in a smaller frame size. So high capacity double stack pistols can be issued while still fitting the hand of any person. Double stack .45’s and 10mm’s can have rather large frames and some ladies and even some men can have trouble getting their hand wrapped around one properly. Has nothing to do with recoil.

10mm is a fine cartridge but the .40 s&w is better suited for the defensive handgun. JMO.

The switch to 9mm was about recoil and hit probability. Supposedly, shooting scores went up by a considerable margin for the average uniformed officer when they shot 9mm.
 

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Agreed.

There were two really good reasons.

1. The cartridge delivered the best consistent penetration. Meaning it didn’t under penetrate and was likely to never over penetrate. It most consistently made it through the vitals and either stops right before it would exit or exits with almost nothing left.

2. It fits in a smaller frame size. So high capacity double stack pistols can be issued while still fitting the hand of any person. Double stack .45’s and 10mm’s can have rather large frames and some ladies and even some men can have trouble getting their hand wrapped around one properly. Has nothing to do with recoil.

10mm is a fine cartridge but the .40 s&w is better suited for the defensive handgun. JMO.

The switch to 9mm was about recoil and hit probability. Supposedly, shooting scores went up by a considerable margin for the average uniformed officer when they shot 9mm.
I had forgotten about the double stack issue Trent, that was a requirement in one of the government agencies parameters if I remember right, something about 12 rounds minimum.
I originally had a Glock 23 but traded it for Walther P99, I'm not in love with it but enjoy shooting 165 grain loads at steel plates.
 

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This has to be the biggest 'net myth ever created. I know exactly why the FBI adopted the .40 S&W & it had zero to with this malarkey. The reason was published in the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.

Call the FBI's Firearms Training Division at Quantico. You'll get the straight scoop there.
My post was about the reason why the FBI developed the FBI 10mm load. What I stated is indeed backed up by one of the central developers of the famous, or infamous as you may, FBI load, John Hall.

"Samples of commercially available lOmm ammunition were acquired and preliminarily evaluated as to suitability for law enforcement use. The high chamber pressures generated by the commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round. Therefore, the FBI Fire- arms Training Unit decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of the competing 9mm and .45 cartridges. A 180 grain hollow point bullet was acquired and handloaded to a velocity of 950 feet per second. This loading not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but it also dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast.

In the absence of factory ammunition built to the desired specifications, the 10mm rounds initially subjected to the test protocol were those hand loaded by the Firearms Training Unit staff. Subsequently, factory-loaded 10mm ammunition was acquired and built to the desired specifications, which actually met or surpassed the performance of the hand loaded test ammunition."

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122334NCJRS.pdf

So, my statement is and continues to be correct.
 

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In another application, my opinion, which ain't yet attained 2 bits' value, is the 10MM in a 1911-A1 handgun is perched atop of top tier wilderness handgun cartridges. 9 220 grain 10MM rounds at max velocity with another 8 ready to go inside a few seconds would convince the meanest critter of North America's mean critters that it chose its dining menu option poorly. If archers kill mean critters every year with arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a 220 grain 10MM bullet has to be exponentially more effective.
Not even close. If there are tiers, the 10mm is somewhere in the middle where it shares ground with the .357Mag. Even the .45Super and .460Rowland might be considered a tier above. All are at best deer/medium game cartridges. Far from optimal for anything of any size, mean or not.

It is foolish to try and compare bullets to arrows.
 

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My friend has a 1911 10mm that he swears by and is proud of. I have a .45acp that I swear by. I much prefer my .41mag to a 10mm. And if deer hunting is considered, I've taken lots of them with the .357, .41 and .44.
 

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I shoot my custom Glock G21 Longslide I developed in 2004 with both 185grn & 200grn 45 Super loads. With just a barrel swap and 10mm mags, I shoot it as my G20 Longslide with 165grn, 180grn, and 200grn 10mm loads. I only shoot full power loads in both calibers with it and as I handload, I've tuned them to some powerful loads. I don't bother with 45acp in it as I have a couple of Springfield 1911s for the weaker 45acp.

What I've found is that even the extra performance of the 45 Super doesn't bring it up to the performance of the 10mm. My 200grn 45 Super loads reached 1,307fps but produce a strong recoil, much more pronounced than my 180grn or 200grn 10mm loads.

Surprisingly, my most powerful 165grn 10mm loads at 1,589fps and 925ft/lbs ME, my 180grn at 1,479fps and 874ft/lbs of ME, or my 200grn at 1,383fps and 849ft/lbs of ME don't produce anywhere near the recoil impulse as the 200grn 45 Supers at 1,307fps and 758ft/lbs of ME.

Yes, both calibers are plenty for self defense for dangerous 2 legged creatures but the added performance of the 10mm is significant and very important when confronted by a dangerous 4 legged animal. That's why, when I head out into the Rockies, I always take my 10mm G21L with me. In fact, I shoot the G20L 10mm more than 20 times more than the 45 Super G21L.
 
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I shoot my custom Glock G21 Longslide I developed in 2004 with both 185grn & 200grn 45 Super loads. With just a barrel swap and 10mm mags, I shoot it as my G20 Longslide with 165grn, 180grn, and 200grn 10mm loads. I only shoot full power loads in both calibers with it and as I handload, I've tuned them to some powerful loads. I don't bother with 45acp in it as I have a couple of Springfield 1911s for the weaker 45acp.

What I've found is that even the extra performance of the 45 Super doesn't bring it up to the performance of the 10mm. My 200grn 45 Super loads reached 1,307fps but produce a strong recoil, much more pronounced than my 180grn or 200grn 10mm loads.

Surprisingly, my most powerful 165grn 10mm loads at 1,589fps and 925ft/lbs ME, my 180grn at 1,479fps and 874ft/lbs of ME, or my 200grn at 1,383fps and 849ft/lbs of ME don't produce anywhere near the recoil impulse as the 200grn 45 Supers at 1,307fps and 758ft/lbs of ME.

Yes, both calibers are plenty for self defense for dangerous 2 legged creatures but the added performance of the 10mm is significant and very important when confronted by a dangerous 4 legged animal. That's why, when I head out into the Rockies, I always take my 10mm G21L with me. In fact, I shoot the G20L 10mm more than 20 times more than the 45 Super G21L.
You mention “added performance.” Measured how if I may ask? Less drop at range? More terminal effectiveness? Have you shot game with either? Just curious.
 

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Hunting arrows weight is the range of 380-560 gr but the critical difference between a blunt bullet and an arrow is the razor blades used as tips that cut through flesh and even bone. The force per sq inch with a hunting arrow at the tip is IMMENSE. Most hits are through and through even on the largest predators such as brown bears.

They cut and slice by razor sharp arrow heads designed for maximum blood loss.

So it is truly apples and oranges to compare the physics of bullets and arrows on your targeted critter. The sharpness of the arrow head reduces the friction factor exponentially when entering an animal. Two totally different mechanisms at work here on a physics level.

Just as the pressure generated by the tooth of a great white shark is concentrated on the razor sharp tip of its teeth, so likewise with the arrow head vs the much more blunt, in comparison, bullet even at higher velocities.

The KE of an arrow is not the operative issue, it is the reduction of friction entering the flesh.

https://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/...netic-energy-determining-arrows-killing-power
Both kill identically: destruction of structure necessary for sustaining life.

Everything living dies identically: lack of oxygenated blood to the brain causing brain death or destruction of the brain, for death is defined by lack of brain activity.
 

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Both kill identically: destruction of structure necessary for sustaining life.

Everything living dies identically: lack of oxygenated blood to the brain causing brain death or destruction of the brain, for death is defined by lack of brain activity.
No, they do NOT kill identically. Sorry but the tap dancing is in vain. Just like in the other thread, it becomes painfully obvious that for you, this all exists in the abstract. You've read about it, probably mostly statistics, have never done it and have no idea what it actually looks like.
 

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Both kill identically: destruction of structure necessary for sustaining life.

Everything living dies identically: lack of oxygenated blood to the brain causing brain death or destruction of the brain, for death is defined by lack of brain activity.
As a board certified internal medicine doctor, I readily understand the centrality of brain death in every cause of death.

However, that was not the question. It was a question of the physics of arrows vs bullets. Comparing kinetic energy between the two, i.e, the physics of these actions is quite different. Arrows with sharp tips require significantly less kinetic energy to penetrate deeply.

Studies on Great White sharks show that the reason a shark can easily bite through a hardened surf board is the incredible magnification of their bite power on the very tip of the tooth where all of that energy is concentrated. Likewise with an arrow.

Bullets being blunt require significantly greater kinetic energy to penetrate to the same levels. The physics of the two types of penetration is quite different.
 

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No, they do NOT kill identically. Sorry but the tap dancing is in vain. Just like in the other thread, it becomes painfully obvious that for you, this all exists in the abstract. You've read about it, probably mostly statistics, have never done it and have no idea what it actually looks like.
You gotta believe what you've gotta believe.

The legal definition of death is lack of brain activity. Whether an arrow or bullet terminates topside oxygenated blood flow is immaterial. That topside oxygenated blood flow is terminated is definitive of death.

Mechanism of termination of topside oxygenated blood flow is immaterial.
 

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Alaska444,

Assuming an arrow destroy's a deer's heart, how long it will remain upright will depend upon its metabolism. The identical is true for a bullet.

I do get the external ballistics part differentiating high power rifle bullets from arrows. However, once either destroys apparatus for sending oxygenated blood topside, it's academic. A deer w/o oxygenated blood supply to its brain is going to die consistent with its metabolism. (I've been told, but I don't know of its scientific validity, that a bull elk will remain vertical for 30 seconds w/o topside oxygenated blood flow). Were we considering human beings, it's about 8 seconds. Hence, a bad guy with a heart permanently out of operation has about another 8 seconds on his feet during which he can take a good guy with him. At that point, it'd be up to St Peter where their souls reside ;-)

BTW, I always try to terminate topside oxygenated blood flow. I'm good walking up on dead big game animals. Wounded big game animals fighting for survival can darken an otherwise memorable adventure in Mother Nature's majesty.
 

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Alaska444,

BTW, I always try to terminate topside oxygenated blood flow. I'm good walking up on dead big game animals. Wounded big game animals fighting for survival can darken an otherwise memorable adventure in Mother Nature's majesty.
How would you know? Earlier you claimed to have killed some small animals and now you claim a record book elk. How come your story is changing. You still haven’t provided a shred of evidence backing your sweeping declarations.
 

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How would you know? Earlier you claimed to have killed some small animals and now you claim a record book elk. How come your story is changing. You still haven’t provided a shred of evidence backing your sweeping declarations.
Whitworth,

You're becoming an internet stalker.

You're practiced at the art of propaganda. What "sweeping declarations" have I made?

You'd make Nancy Pelosi envious.

You've spent a lot of your tax dollars training me how to terminate imminent threats and how to stay alive. All of my professional continuing education hours for which you've paid were based upon scientific principles.

You, on the other hand, hustle opinion as knowledge.

Get a life. You'll be happier that way.
 
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