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1911 38 Super---

3K views 16 replies 9 participants last post by  Kevinbear 
#1 ·
This gun came from an old friend in Florida and I don't know the history of it. It's a very early military Colt frame and two tone 38 Super slide and aftermarket barrel. The work is top notch. It came with an ammo can with 700 rounds and four magazines.
Does anybody recognize the work? Checkering of the grip and TG front is 90deg 'island-style'.
 

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#3 ·
Nope...not local (Lousiana) unless it was from a small shop....don''t know about a big name 'smith elsewhere (and they tended to "sign" on the under side of the slide).,

Do have some respect for the .38 super in the 1911 format....depends how they set it up to headpace (that semi-rim isn't really all that reliable)
 
#4 ·
JUst a really odd comment....was once upon a time when people tried (1) short SWC bullets that headspaced from the SWC shoulder hitting the rifling and (2) a few odd-guys who slightly rechambered for a "dead end chamber" and used shortened .351WSLbrass. Somewhere in the middle to late 1970's Colt seemed to catch on and not "loose-length" chamber the barrels.
 
#5 ·
Neither the beavertail nor the trigger looks any different from what could be had from the Brownells catalog thirty years ago. Maybe I am showing my age by not thinking of that as "old-time". On the other hand, I don't immediately recognize the grip panels. Perhaps they are the clue to its age.
 
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#6 ·
Just guessing….does look like a build, does have some care in the building. Frame/slide/barrel don’t have to be from one pistol.


Just a feeling from the location of the slide markings (the right side markings ahead of the ejection port) and the kind of two-tone blue slide. Redacted serial number seems to be the right location to be a Colt frame...font seems “old school”.


So mostly my guess at age is based on the font of the serial number (the two numbers I can see) and that two tone slide (blue just takes differently on different harness levels).


Not that age really makes a difference to use…did seem to be an accuracy liability. Just something they kept on doing. Semi rim headspace (it’s just the little bit of the barrel hood) might have made sense to them in 1899-1900 (.38 ACP), the up-powered .38 Super just inherited it.
 
#7 ·
It is no doubt a 'built' gun. The frame is a 24xxx military made by Colt. The slide is a civvy Super. They have been fitted together, barrel lug and link fitted, bushing fitted and new sights, front and rear.
The grips are Rogers marked and the barrel is Wilson-Rogers.
It has the 'feel' and overall appearance of a '50s or '60s gun with almost no wear or evidence of use.
 
#8 ·
Well, Wilson didn't go into business until 1977 and, if Wikipedia is correct, didn't start making their own parts until 1983.
 
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#9 ·
Jardine's is the only name that pops into my head from my old IPSC days. I built most of my own with parts that I got from Brownell's or at shoots. I did buy a "built" pistol in around 85, but not sure who did the work.
 
#10 ·
Nice looking 1911. (y) I know this getting a little off track here but, I've wondered why the handgun companies have never built a high capacity .38 Super. This would put a frown on purists but, might make the Super a much more popular cartridge.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Some more information-- This gun was 'bought' in S. Africa during the Rhodesian conflict and brought back by my friend. Somebody put a threaded recoil spring guide, extra-sized grip safety, arched mainspring housing, Micro sights, a new trigger and a ribbed bushing. The barrel is marked as Colt .38 Super on the backside. The checkering is very well done and bead blasted heavy enough to wipe out evidence of being able to determine if hand done or machine done. There has NOT been any fitting to the barrel or link and there's no signs of peening on the frame or slide, but both have been stoned, so the evidence could be gone.
The gun has been shot enough to lead the barrel, but it cleaned to like new. It's easy to tell the frame has been nickeled and the slide re-blued, but not a bad job. The sides are polished and all the 'edges' bead blasted after perfect masking.
The trigger is not target crisp or light, but better that military. Somebody knowledge in 1911s polished the rear of the disconnector where it contacts the spring and the trigger but the sear and hammer seem to be totally unaltered. (Shocked!)
The left front corner of the trigger guard is marked with a P and a combined VP inside a triangle. Serial is old Colt style font 25xxx. (No C prefix) The right side slide markings are forward of the port. Left slide markings are in two lines. There is no rampant colt markings anywhere and no US property markings or over-polished places where it could have been.

It's an interesting gun, in good shape with nearly an ammo can of factory ammo and once fired brass for a 'daddy wanted you to have this' price...so it's mine. :)

I finally found my reference work for the 1911 (Poyer) and will try to make sense of it and post results.

THAT was fun and educational. The .38 Super had its own serial range. That gun is a commercial, 1937, .38 Super with some added parts, well done checkering and a refinish. The VP in the triangle is 'verified proof' applied to all commercial 1911 pistols.
 
#12 ·
The only "Old Days" pistolsmiths that come to MY mind are Armand Swensen (Swenson?), and Austin Behlert. Stylistically, I couldn't pick out pistols worked by them from ones worked by anyone else. I guess the former's ambi-thumb safety MIGHT be an indicator.
 
#13 ·
At one time the woods seemed to be full of 1911 custom builders. I had a Giles built gun on a pre-War National Match that was a marvel, but I traded it for a Rem 40XBBR that was a marvel, too. I had a Secamp DA Commander conversion for a time, too. A 1911 of some sort has to be in the gun room at all times, of course. ;) The current resident is a 1950 commercial with Series 70 barrel and bushing. I love them for the mechanics and seldom shoot one, but I just ran a magazine through this 38 Super just because I can. Neat old gun that would be even better if still original.
 
#14 ·
Been a long while.





That’s a well put together .38super,,,,just from description and the 2 pic visuals. Tested for functioning, I’d be happy to holster it on even after so many years after it’s creation.

Can only promise you it ain’t Clark. Not a direction he was known to go in and not the (nearly trade mark touches)….although could do that if pressed by personal obligation.

OK...pat on my back...made reasonable guesses at the slide and frame ages.

With talent, a good snith could have built that even with out a “name”...if looking for a “name”, I;d think Giles or Swenson (all thought I’dsnot think Swenson off the bat).

South Africa (in that time frame) includes a good number of talented gunsmiths that never made much notice in the U.S.

Good work is good work no matter what name you were born with...t.hat's (at least visually) good work.
 
#15 ·
VERY nice... .38 Supers are my favorite semi-autos...

Was the gun purchased as is in SA? There was a very active IPSC body in SA back then...the World Cup I believe was held there one year.

The most unique feature of that gun is the shape of the beavertail...

The only unfortunate issue is that in decent original shape...it would have been worth in the $6-8000 range today. A friend recently inherited a 1931 and when I showed him some of the recent selling prices for a gun in the same condition as his he couldn't believe it...

Bob
 
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