[EMC2]

I'm shooting a Colt Gold Cup Series 80. I bought it new, and had it tuned by a professional. I have about 1,000 rounds through it.

At the range this morning, I was doing some close range speed shooting at the FBI Q target. The failure was the first I've seen, and I hope someone out there can provide some experience:

During two and three shot stings, a round would chamber, but the hammer would be down before I pressed the trigger. I used the circumstance to practice clearing quickly, but out of 100 rounds, it happened about 5 times. This is obviously unacceptable.

On the last time, I cocked the hammer with my thumb, and the round fired normally.

I did not inspect the primer of the rounds that it had happened on In hindsight, I should have looked to see if the primer was indented.

1) Is there a sweet spot on the trigger, where the hammer would follow the slide down and not impact hard enough on the pin to discharge the round? I was double and triple tapping, so I was on the trigger fast. (I can't reproduce this in tests)

3) Is it possible that the hammer could fall before the slide is fully engaged, therefore the firing pin does not contact the primer? (I can't test this in my house, unless I load a couple of primer-only rounds?)

2) I eliminate the spring, because the earlier round ejected, so the slide moved far enough back to lock the hammer.

I'm lost. Any help would be great.

Thanks,

EMC2

 

[BillP]

If your gun was worked on it's possible that they altered the sear engagement and your "break in" of 1000 rounds has done the job and revealed that they went a little too far. Don't worry, it's not a big problem and the "smith" who did the work will fix it.

Specifically they reduce the depth of the sear notch which by itself doesn't lighten the trigger but makes for a much nicer feel. It's possible that if it's minimum, a little dirt may be the culprit but you don't want that problem on a "combat" gun. I did several of these on 1911s years ago and if I remember rite, you don't have to reduce it much if you get the angle rite.

Call the smith, he will know exactly what the problem is and how to fix it.

 

[Jack Monteith]

There's several possibilities. A weak sear spring can allow trigger bounce and might not reset the sear. The sear engagement face or the hammer hooks might be worn. Here's the test for hammer follow. Unload the gun, of course, lock the slide back, lay the gun down on a table and release the slide lock with thumb and finger. The hammer must not follow.

I'd take a close look for signs of wear on the sear and hammer. If they look OK, try bending the left and centre legs of the sear spring ahead about 1/8". A Gold Cup has a couple of extra parts in the sear that I'm not familiar with. The diagram I've got isn't too clear, but one is a lever and the other is a tiny spring. Something else to check.

If the sear and hammer look OK, and tweaking the sear spring doesn't fix it, I'd take it to your gunsmith. John Browning was smarter than most everybody, but there's too many people who think they're smarter than him.

Check out the gunsmithing section at M1911.org. There's a ton of information there.
http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=55

Bye
Jack

 

[Jack Monteith]

Another thing to check.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=44728

Bye
Jack

 

[EMC2]

I think I've got it, but I can't be sure because the only other 1911 style pistol I have in the house is a Para-Ord P12-45.

I'm hoping someone can confirm that this is NOT supposed to happen, and if not, what parts should I order for my series 80?

With an unloaded gun, and an empty magazine, my finger is not on the trigger, the sear will engage if I pull it back and set it, but if I pull it back further, toward the beaver tail again and release it, it will power forward and slam home engaging the firing pin. This does not occur on my Para Ord.

I need a Sear? should I be safe and get the whole assembly?
I can install factory parts myself, and taking a handgun into NYC to my shop is quiet an undertaking in the wonderful gunnotfriendly welcome to New Yorkk

 

[BillP]

You paid good money for the work done. Is the trigger much better than before the work? If you replace the parts, you are back to the beginning try the spring thing Jack suggested, if that doesn't work take it back to the smith. As far as New York is concerned, you may want to move to the US!

 

[Jack Monteith]

That doesn't happen with my old Remington-Rand, and as 1911Tuner has pointed out, the slide comes back fast enough to drive the hammer back onto the grip safety. IIRC, it can bounce a couple of times. I wouldn't repalce the sear until I'd identified the problem.

Bye
Jack

 

[EMC2]

Thanks guys, I just got back from dropping it off. As much as I like to do my own repairs, and consider myself competent with a tool box, I appreciate your voices of reason; there are some things that I have no business toying with.

When I removed the sear I noticed that the bottom of the relief cut in the top of the sear was slightly rounded. I am curious if it is unique to the Gold Cup Trophy, because all of the 1911 sears I located on-line had no relief cut...or if they need to be fit, I do not know. The hammer did not appear worn, but again, I'm not an expert. I increased the bend in the spring, as described above, but it did not help.

I'll post a full report form the shop when it is available.

Thanks again

 

[Marshal Kane]

. . . A Gold Cup has a couple of extra parts in the sear that I'm not familiar with. The diagram I've got isn't too clear, but one is a lever and the other is a tiny spring. . .
The early Gold Cup National Match has a depresser and depresser spring mounted on the sear. It's designed to exert a little more pressure on the sear to engage the hammer notches at all times to prevent the hammer from following the slide. e.g. when releasing the slide or during sustained firing. Can't say whether later Gold Cup models had these parts but things like this tend to interfere with the trigger having a light, crisp break so some gunsmiths will remove these parts when doing an action job. Since the 1911 was initially designed without the depresser and spring, the gun will still function reliably as long as other parts have not been overmodified. EMC2, best to return this to the gunsmith that set up your Gold Cup to have your problem fixed.

 

[EMC2]

Well, I got it back yesterday, and according to my Smith, the hammer was not machined properly from the factory. The hammer notch is obviously supposed to engaged the sear flush, or flat. The contact area of the hammer notch was angled, such that only part of it made contact with the sear surface, and when it was released from full cock, the momentum of the hammer falling caused the sear to "move out of the way", rather than catch the hammer and engage it.

I was also told that the angle was so slight, that 12 passes with a stone had solved the problem. Frankly, if I didn't trust the guy as much as I do, I wouldn't believe it.

It was further explained to me that wear and tear could not have caused the angled notch, but normal break-in could have caused the problem to become more pronounced. Finally, in his years, he said that this has been a more and more common problem, and it tends to happen more on the stainless Series 80's models than the blued models. The reason is because to blue the parts correctly, the finish must be so perfectly polished that there is more expert attention paid to each part, thus less rough machining errors.

In all, I thank you again for convincing me to seek professional help. As you have read, if I just bought a sear, I would be complaining that it didn't help.

Many thanks
EMC2

P.S. If anything I wrote doesn't make sense, please ask. I may not have regurgitated the explanation accurately, and I'd like an opportunity to correct myself.

 

[m141a]

so please let us know the next time you shoot it how it runs!

 

[EMC2]

It ran very well, the issue did not repeat.
The gunsmith did make 2 recommendations: First, that the barrel bushing should really be movable by the wrench only, and that mine is too loose, and (2) the triger has too much side to side play in it, such that if I do not perfectly pull it back, the lateral friction from the side of the trigger box will increase the trigger pull and grit up the feel.

On the first, I'd like to replace the bushing, but I've never had to fit one before, and I'd likely have to buy two, because I'd ruin the first one. On the Trigger matter, again, I've never fit a trigger, so that will just go on the list. Currently, it pulls at 3.4 lbs, and shoots as good as I can hold, so steady hands go forth.

Thanks for following

EMC2

 

[5150]

Great advice above
Somtimes if you are using a lighter grain bullet 185/165 in a speed shooting scenerio you can have this failure occure.
Make sure your wrist stays consistant also.
Good luck