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So i have a Winchester Model 70 7mm from i think 1949. The SN is 123XXX. I was wondering how common the 7mm is? I am trying to find out what size round this takes. I went to the gun store and we tryed to put a 7x54 and it did not fit, the round seemed to be too long.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Welcome to the forum. There would not have been many 7mm rounds back then that would be factory offerings from Winchester. 7x57 would be the classic mauser cartridge, maybe that's what you meant to type. What size is the bolt face? Take the bolt out and see if any if the 7x57, or a .308, or a .30-06, will fit. All of them have the same case head size and should slide up under the extractor. The bolt face should be too small for a belted magnum.

If a 7x57 doesn't quite chamber, it could be simply that the throat is just too short for the particular cartridge you have. Don't try a 7mm-08, it will be too fat in the shoulder area even if it fits the bolt face.

I can't think of anything else it might be. There were other 7mm rounds, but many were marked as .275-something if the guns were made in Britain. Is the barrel original (does it have the boss partway down from the chamber)?

Call around to gunsmiths in the area, maybe one of them will have go and no-go gages for the 7x57. That would be a little more authoritative than just trying rounds in the chamber.

Good luck.
 

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Welcome to the forum. Rules are to join in, have fun, and play nicely with the rest of us kids. Other rules are in stickies in the General forum.

Since you already know the year of manufacture, I moved you to a new thread from the old one you posted in.

I see Mike beat me to this, but I'll repeat anyway: standard practice is to stamp the name of the cartridge on the barrel. If that is not present, due to rebarreling or wild-catting, you will have to get a gunsmith to take a chamber cast and get measurements from that. I count 54 different 7 mm cartridges in QuickLOAD's database alone. Some of these are too new to have been for your gun, but there are lots of old ones, too. 7×53R/Finnish, 7×54 Finnish, and 7×57 Mauser are probably the most common from before 1950.
 

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So i have a Winchester Model 70 7mm from i think 1949. The SN is 123XXX. I was wondering how common the 7mm is? I am trying to find out what size round this takes. I went to the gun store and we tryed to put a 7x54 and it did not fit, the round seemed to be too long.
Your rifle should state, on the barrel, 7 mm MAUSER or 7 X 57 m/m. There weren't too many Pre '64 Model 70's chambered for this round especially in the carbine length Model 70's.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry i did mean 7x57 not 7x54. on the barrel it just says 7mm. that is why i was wondering what type of 7mm. when i used wikipedia it was saying that the 7x57 was made in 1893, the 7mm-08 was made in 1958, and the 7mm rem mag was made in 1962. i was told to go to a gun smith to get a baral cast from a gun smith and go from there. the 7x57 round was to long when chambering the round. right now im at work so i cant look at the face of the bolt. when i get sometime tonight ill have to take a look. how i got this gun was from my wifes fam. Her grandfather passed away before she was born and her dad was given these guns. Her father is not big in having guns so he passed them on to me. i know the gun was not shot for over 28 years. it is in good shape and the wood on the gun is in really really good shape. ill have to see if i can post a picture so you can have a look. I did not know what i was given until i started to dig on the internet. i have only been shooting for a short time and this is only my second gun.
 

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You may have a treasure

I don't know what condition your Model 70 is in, but it is possible that your rifle is worth a considerable amount of money, particularly with its rather rare chambering (.30-06 and .270 Winchester were by far the most common). "Original condition" is the most important part of its value -- just so you know before you do something you may regret later (like re-blueing it, drilling extra holes, sawing a couple inches off the barrel, etc.)

If the barrel is original, it is almost certain that it is chambered for the 7x57 Mauser cartridge. As has been mentioned, there were others available then (although I suspect the 7-08 arrived much later) -- but none were common here, and the 7x57 was.

My taste would be to keep the rifle "age appropriate", with sights that were available right after the war -- but it's your rifle, not mine.

Dunno if you can tell, but I'm a little jealous of your acquisition. I hope you enjoy it as much as I would.

The Old Guy
 

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From what i can tell it is all original condition. the only mods that i can tell were that a mount was added for a scope and the back iron sight is off of it. i think if i dig in the gun cabint that i got it out of i might be able to find the back sight. i was told by the guy at the gun shop to ask the gun smith if they added the holes for the sight mount or not. i am not looking to sale the gun at this point in time but i was looking forward to shooting it, i guess that will not happen now.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Back in the day, gun companies marked barrels as they saw fit. If there weren't any other common chamberings in a certain bore size, they just might mark it as simply as yours. 7mm, 30 Army, etc. Not the more detailed stampings we have now, some of which can cover half the barrel :rolleyes:

Lots of cartridge development and wildcats after WWII, but most if not all of them were larger and on belted cases.

Try a different brand of 7x57. Something should work. This ought not be too difficult of a case to solve. Make sure there isn't any dried up grease on the bolt lugs. If the cartridge doesn't go in the chamber all the way, how close is it? Halfway, or is the bolt almost cammed down? Big difference between the two. Let us know.

Oh and find another gun shop to take it to. Those guys don't have the equipment (gages) or knowledge to help you. No offense but they should have been able to figure it out with some simple measurements, and whether it is an original Winchester barrel.
 

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MikeG is right. Back in the day they marked barrels by what chamberings they were, BUT, back then, there were FAR FEWER factory chambered rounds. Back then the only 7mm was the 7X57. As already noted, that particular chambering was a very rare one. Your rifle, if in very good condition and unaltered is worth a lot of $$$$.

If it was mine, I'd still use it, after all, it was built to shoot. I have a couple pre '64s in my collection and even tho one of mine is also a pretty pricey rifle now, it still gets used, because that's what it was made for. Congrats on owning a very fine piece of very finely made American iron. I consider the pre '64 to be one of the very best one or two rifles ever mass produced.

I would advise you to look at Dave Riffle's site and see what some rare, nice M70s are going for these days. I bought a 1954 specimen from him several years ago and was quite pleased with what I got. I was even more pleased when I sold it.....lol.

This is my pre '64 Featherweight .270 made by the custom shop.
 

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i am not looking to sale the gun at this point in time but i was looking forward to shooting it, i guess that will not happen now.
Oh my, I hope you didn't get that idea from me -- that wasn't my intent at all. I agree completely with Tnhunter.

The Old Guy
 

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My Gun Digest book of gun values lists both a 7mm and 7x57 for mod. 70s (1936-1963). Also states to see an appraiser for several cals. including 7x57mm! I tried a search for the book Cartridges of the World, but my slow screwy computer wont cooperate. Maybe someone else has a copy or can get it up on the net.
 

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One of Jack O'Connor's books mentions that he had the last M70/7X57 fabricated on a special request, I think early '50's.

He also mentions that at one time both the M54 and M70 were so chambered, and moderately popular in the FWT version.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yeah I knew the scope mount would knock the value down. I have still no idea what the value would be on this gun. I'm not going to give it up, plus the wife would have to ok it because it is her grandfathers gun.
 

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Find the original stock, if you can. The scope mount is probably removable. In terms of collector value, the non original stock is going to hurt- a lot!
 

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I suspect the others are right that you tried the wrong round. These days you see both 7×57 Mauser and the rimmed version, the 7×57R for the Mosin Nagent military surplus rifles. The rimmed version would not let you close the bolt. It sometimes also is loaded with long round nose bullets that need a chamber with a longer freebore than commercial chambers usually have.
 

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So is the stock changed out or was that how he bought the gun? Like i said i didnt know much about this gun until i started looking on the internet and asking about questions.
 

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One of Jack O'Connor's books mentions that he had the last M70/7X57 fabricated on a special request, I think early '50's.

He also mentions that at one time both the M54 and M70 were so chambered, and moderately popular in the FWT version.
I remember that as I have his book. He was in the Hospital recovering & asked Winchester if they had atleast one Model 70 in 7 mm Mauser. They contacted him and said they would assemble, for him, the LAST one, which hasten his recovery.;) I believe his Wife also used the 7 X 57 m/m for most of her hunting.
 

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So is the stock changed out or was that how he bought the gun? Like i said i didnt know much about this gun until i started looking on the internet and asking about questions.
It's impossible to know if that's how he bought the gun, but that is not an original type Model 70 stock. I'm curious as to the overall length of the barrel. It does not appear to be a 24" tube which was typical in a m70 standard rifle (non magnum). It has the proper barrel band for rear sight mounting (removed on your rifle), but sure looks shorter than 24" to my eye in the photos.

If the rifle was an old M70 Carbine in 7mm (7X57), then it's an extremely rare rifle. I believe the older Carbine models had 20" tubes. To the best of my knowledge, these rifles were not stamped as "Carbine" anywhere either. The original featherweights didn't debut until 1952 (22" tubes), I believe, and your rifle's serial # does show 1949 production, just as you've stated already.

Also, as already mentioned, an original pre '64 stock would go a long way to restoring value to your particular rifle. I believe any L/A post war stock, up to 1963 will fit your rifle. No non-magnum chamberings carried recoil pads as original equipment, so beware of buying one of those. Honest, well kept examples are not impossible to find even today as many of these rifles were custom-stocked and smart gunsmiths and owners kept those old stocks, even after selling those old re-stocked rifles. You still see them for sale on a fairly regular basis for $150-$250.

This is to show what a possible value of a mint M70 Carbine in 7mm might be today:

WINCHESTER 70 CARBINE 7MM PRE 64 - Winchester Model 70 Pre 64 Rifles

This link may give you some useful, additional info. It does seem to say, however, that the Carbine models (20" barrels) were likely discontinued around 1947.

Winchester Pre-64 M70 Info
 
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