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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is the first borescope video I have taken in my Miroku/Winchester Model 94 Sporter. Purchased new from a dealer on Gunbroker on 11/21. It was brand new with all the tags, box, papers etc. It's a beautiful looking gun and I have put just under 200 rounds of medium to light loads, epoxy and clad bullets. About 25 rounds were just below max. I can't seem to get it to shoot better than 4-6 inches at 100 yards. I clean after every session. After looking into the bore I saw pitting from the round octagon break in the barrel to the chamber. I thought it was strange as I have never in 50 years seen anything like that in any of my rifles, levers mostly. Is this the norm for new rifles? Here is a link to the youtube video. Anyone can comment.
 

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It looks to be the result of a contaminated button or hammer forging spud that 'ironed in' the pits. They don't look to be corrosion.
What 'scope is that? Great pics from the correct perspective.
 

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Have you shot any factory loads from the gun? What caliber? I’ve owned a couple of Savage rifles where the rifling looked like it was cut with a hammer and chisel and in spite of that they shot pretty well. I’m not suggesting that your barrel is OK, I’m just not sold on this being all your accuracy problem. Again, have you shot any factory jacketed bullets out of the gun?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Have you shot any factory loads from the gun? What caliber? I’ve owned a couple of Savage rifles where the rifling looked like it was cut with a hammer and chisel and in spite of that they shot pretty well. I’m not suggesting that your barrel is OK, I’m just not sold on this being all your accuracy problem. Again, have you shot any factory jacketed bullets out of the gun?
I have not fired factory loads as of yet. The caliber is 32 Winchester Special. I won't spend the money on overpriced factory loads. I have 50 years experience and quite a few trophies to prove my worth with firearms. I personally think I haven't found the best loading yet. In my opinion, this barrel should never have left the factory. All my Mirokus have flawless barrels without any of this business going on. It may have to go back but we will wait and see with the next batch of rounds, a scoping for fouling and a deep cleaning.
 

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If you step through the pit part a few frames at a time you'll see repeated patterns and shapes. That's an indication of 'swarf' caught by the rifling button and pressed into the bore. Notice more pits on the lands than in the grooves, too. Somebody didn't flush all the chips out of the fresh bore ready for rifling. I'm sure they'll replace that.
 

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Regardless of the damage, that is not the cause of your accuracy problems. That bore ought to shoot just fine. You may experience a little more fouling deposit in that area, but that kind of very minor damage to a bore doesn't ruin a rifles accuracy. I would bench test it with 2-3 different brands of factory ammo to get a baseline. If its still shooting groups that are greater than 4" then you have some work to do.
 

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epoxy and clad bullets.
I assume these are cast bullets, powder coated (epoxy?) and copper washed (clad, like Berry bullets?). Advise if I'm wrong. You don't say, but have you slugged the barrel yet to confirm a proper fit of the lead bullets? If not, I'd do so before sending any more bullets (factory or hand loads) downrange. I understand your reason for not spending money on factory loads, if it's not the barrel you should get the results you want with handloads IF the bullets fit the barrel properly, meaning .001" to .003" greater than bore (groove) diameter, certainly nothing less.
I suspect you paid a premium for the rifle, based on your description, and I wouldn't accept a barrel that looked like that, regardless of that being or not being an accuracy problem....it's not right, and you shouldn't have to accept it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Only shot epoxy coated at first. Bore slugged at .321, epoxy bullets were .322. Had to shoot them at about 1500 fps. Fairly accurate. Never shot plated. The last round of testing over the past two months were Speer 2259s 170 gr. And Hornady 165 gr. Hot loads started to spread so found a lower load of 4198 and the best I got was 3 inches at 50 yards. After tomorrows range session I'll decide whether it goes back. I'm leaning in that direction.
 

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Note, "epoxy" and "powder coated" are not the same thing. Which are you using?

What were the most accurate loads you shot through the gun, and what were the group sizes? "Fairly accurate" means about the same vague level of information as "fairly tasty" or "less filling." Measurements would help ;)

It does looks like someone rifled a gravel road, but I've had guns with worse looking bores that shot better. So I'm not sure the bore condition is the entire reason for the poor accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Missouri Bullets Hi-Tech 2. As stated above 3 inches at 50 yards with The Speer and the Hornady's were a little worse. 24 grains of powder were used. Thats the low end. More powder more spread. Reloader 7 at 20 grains and the Hi-Tech 2 coated did well at 50 yards for three shots .414 c to c and then shotgun out to 5 inches. My expectations are very high when I drop serious coin on my rifles. I know what they should and should not do. This gun is one I can't count on right now so more range time today and inspection. I hope it will respond better but if not then back to the factory. Right now, the bore is as clean I can get it so after today, I'll look for fouling and where it's the worst. It might shed some light. Of all my Mirokus this one just does not shoot nearly as well. The others are ragged hole shooters at 50. The 45-70 is scary accurate with bullets touching at 100 yards. Model 73 is the same in 357 magnum. Excellent with any bullets I have tried, coated or clad. This gun has taken me since November of 21 to now using 6 different powders and numerous load charges and still so-so results. Now as far as epoxy or coated bullets I should have stated they were Hi-Tech 2 coated. I assumed they were epoxy, sorry for the confusion.
 

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Now as far as epoxy or coated bullets I should have stated they were Hi-Tech 2 coated. I assumed they were epoxy, sorry for the confusion.
That was the reason for the question, as some people have, with good success, 'epoxy coated' lead bullets using shake can spray epoxy appliance paint (like Krylon). A cheap way to go, and apparently works. See here: Cast Bullets and epoxy coating - General Discussion - 10mm-Firearms

For me, if it were a 100 year old gun with a bore that had 'some issues', I'd probably work with it [almost] 'til the cows come home' to get some acceptable accuracy results. But, if I paid a high dollar for a brand new rifle and the bore looked like that, it would always be in the back of my mind, regardless of results...but that's just me!
 

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View attachment 106039 This is the gun and its a beauty. I installed Skinner rear and front sights. The sight picture improved quite a bit over factory. I only use iron sights. Eyesight is still about 20/20. Just a picture for reference.
Beautiful rifle!!
A tip on photo posting; If you also include (by clicking on) the 'thumbnail' option, us readers can click on the thumbnail image and then enlarge it with the + sign, we can see much more detail than with the simple photo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Winchester got back to me and would like a look. I went to the range this am and 20 shots at 100 yards yeilded a group size that was 6 inches by 14.5 inches and it looks like heavy fouling. That same load gave me a great group in comparison at 50 yards when I first started testing it. 24 grains of 4198. with the Hornady 165gr (the top group) and the Speer 170 for the bottom
group. All from the bench.

Paint Material property Font Tints and shades Circle
Paint Material property Font Tints and shades Circle
The cat has to inspect everything. Here is some fouling shots.
Automotive tire Rim Gas Tints and shades Circle
Paint Material property Font Tints and shades Circle
Musical instrument Wood Gas Composite material Tints and shades
Automotive lighting Tints and shades Gas Tableware Glass
Automotive lighting Fluid Automotive tire Liquid Water
Automotive lighting Rim Gas Glass Window
Automotive tire Rim Gas Tints and shades Circle
Automotive lighting Rim Gas Tints and shades Circle

Automotive lighting Fluid Automotive tire Liquid Water

Automotive lighting Rim Gas Tints and shades Circle

Automotive lighting Rim Gas Glass Window

Automotive lighting Tints and shades Gas Tableware Glass

Musical instrument Wood Gas Composite material Tints and shades

Ill post a video link in a bit.
 

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Just a thought, have you tried seating the bullets to a bit longer COL?? (After making sure your chamber has room of course). I know it's a totally different cartridge, but my 94 Big Bore 375 didn't shoot very well at 50yds when I made my ammo to book spec COL. Best I could get was unpredictable 6-8" groups. After determining that I had plenty of room in the chamber to seat as long as the action could cycle, my groups closed up considerably, to about 1.5" at 50yds using factory sights.

And I totally agree that this is not acceptable for a brand new rifle of just about any kind, let alone a Miroku Winchester. Very out of character for them. Sending it back to the factory would definitely be on the table for me as well. Not much in this world more frustrating than a rifle that simply won't shoot no matter what you try.
 

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Just a thought, have you tried seating the bullets to a bit longer COL?? (After making sure your chamber has room of course). I know it's a totally different cartridge, but my 94 Big Bore 375 didn't shoot very well at 50yds when I made my ammo to book spec COL. Best I could get was unpredictable 6-8" groups. After determining that I had plenty of room in the chamber to seat as long as the action could cycle, my groups closed up considerably, to about 1.5" at 50yds using factory sights.

And I totally agree that this is not acceptable for a brand new rifle of just about any kind, let alone a Miroku Winchester. Very out of character for them. Sending it back to the factory would definitely be on the table for me as well. Not much in this world more frustrating than a rifle that simply won't shoot no matter what you try.
The Big Bore 94 in .375 Win has an interesting chamber.

Without getting to deep in an off topic issue, the .375 Win could not be made longer to preclude chambering a .375 Win cartridge in a .38-55 due to length limits in cycling through the action. Beyond beefing it up around the locking lugs Winchester didn’t want to make changes to the Model 94.

What Winchester did was:

1) Bring back the .38-55 (in 1978 for various commemorative rifles) with a .3775” bullet diameter and a shorter 2.080“ case length (as opposed to .379” to .380” and 2.125”);

2) Use a .375” bullet diameter in the .375 Win, along with a shorter 2.020” case length; and

3) Use .375 Win chamber dimensions that were long enough and generous enough in the chamber, throat and leade that a .38-55 would have enough room to release the larger bullet and then size it down into the smaller bore in the longer leade, allowing a .38-55 to be safely fired in a .375 Win carbine,

In turn, with the smaller bullet and shorter case, a .375 Win could safely be fired in a .38-55 with pressures at or below the max allowed for the .38-55.

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That and the fast 1-12” rifling create big issues for the .375 owner wanting to shoot cast bullets, or in some cases even jacketed bullets.

For jacketed bullets, as you’ve noted seat them long as possible without hanging up in the action to reduce the jump to the rifling in that large and long throat.

For cast bullets, use a large diameter to better fit the larger throat diameter. .001“ or .002“ over bore diameter isn’t enough. You are seeking as large a diameter that still allows the cartridge to chamber and the bullet to release from the case. Depending on your brass that’s probably .379” or .380”.

For cast bullets in my .375 Win I just use 2.080” .38-55 brass. It’s usually a little thinner at the mouth, lets me maximize bullet diameter to get more rapid obturation and less gas cutting, and puts the bullet .060” closer to the rifling.
 
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