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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am fairly new to reloading but wonder how this could have anything to do with the bullets I loaded. Lots of variables because gun is new Savage varmiter with a Weaver Grand Slam 4.5x-14x 40mm scope. First round, I shot Remington factory loads with hollow points 50 gr.

I got it to shoot OK but newness of gun and especially the trigger led me to think most of the error was of my own doing. I checked the scope for level and found it to be a bit off so adjusted that.

Went to the range with Rem ammo and first shot understandable was off from the adjusting I did. Dialed in the change and fist shot just a bit right of center dot. Second shot touching on the high side. Satisfied it was dialed in properly.

First shot with reload of 36gr Varget using hornady v-max 50 gr head a bit low but almost two inches left. The wind was pretty strong and had shifted some from in my face to maybe 2:30. Fired again and this bullet hit at the same height abut a little bit more left maybe 1/4 or 1/2 inch. I thought it had to be the wind.

Then tried same bullet and head with 36.5 Varget. This bullet hit at the same height as the factory loads but once again was left. Second one left a bit more.

I gave up thinking the wind was just too much and it was cold as **** too.

When I got home went to the Winchester site and to their ballistic table. At 100 yards the wind pretty much has no impact at all.

I weighed each charge with two scales to make sure I was exactly on the number. I mic'd each case to make sure it was at the COL. The barrel is a very thick barrel so I do not think the heat was going to make it move. I did take time after each shot to check where the shot hit so there was at least 1 minute between shots and it was pretty cold. I had a thin barreled 243 that would start moving around if you shot it too much but do not expect this, especially on the 4th shot.

If I had any reason to believe that the movement was not the wind I would have fired another factory round but regrettably I did not.

I read that boat tails could be a bit finicky in the 22-250 so is this what I could expect. Oh shotting the 36 gr load the two hits were pretty close but left. The 36.5 was spread out a bit more. So I am thinking of loading some more with 36 gr but want to have a good handle on what happened before I do that. Any ideas, or experiences would be greatly appreciated.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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You've discovered what a lot of shooters learn - different loads may impact on the target at different, unpredictable spots. Or they may all group together.

I have a rifle that will shoot two different loads about 4 minutes apart left-to-right. Same bullet weight, same powder charge, same primer.

You just never know.
 

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You've discovered what a lot of shooters learn - different loads may impact on the target at different, unpredictable spots. Or they may all group together.

I have a rifle that will shoot two different loads about 4 minutes apart left-to-right. Same bullet weight, same powder charge, same primer.

You just never know.
+1 He might try H-380, as when I owned a .22-250 (Ruger Model 77) I found this powder to be more consistant.
 

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Another vote for what mike and Davers said. I've seen some pretty accomplished riflemen do dumb things like change loads before a hunt without rechecking the zero, then wonder why they missed.

As davers mentioned H-380 is a great powder for a 22-250. I've owned several 22-250s and still have one, all shot good with various charges of H380.
 

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I will also agree with everyone as far as loads impacting at different point, with just a little change in the load.
If you want check out my post from a couple days ago and you'll see some targets that with just a little change in powder made the POI change quite a bit...As well as groups sizes......Post is on 22 Hornet, and range results....check it out.

I never change anything with scope during load development, I always let it hit where it does, then once tuned in I'll adjust scope to the load.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the info. I adjusted the scope for the factory loads and had it adjusted so I hit dead on at 100. I did not change the scope at all when I tried the two different loads. The load with 36 grs was left but they hit pretty close together. What totally amazes me is that a different change can alter the point of impact left or right that much.

Any one care to venture a guess what would cause the point of impact to change right or left. Up and down makes perfect sense to me but right and left I cannot even venture a guess as to what might cause it to happen. With so many comments that this has happened to them it is clear to me that this was not just some random event. Any Physicists in the house.
 

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I had problems with my Savage 22-250 grouping and decided to do the big one and changed barrels, stock and trigger with a bedding job and free float on the barrel. 50 Gr. V-Max and 34 Gr. varget powder and it was just worse than ever. Will try another scope and see what happens. If you have another scope that you trust might be a thought. Lou
 

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Another possible problem may be that the powder residue from the Rem ammunition wasn't compatible with the propellant used in the reloads. When using ammunition loaded with different powders it's a good idea to fire 10 or so of the new cartridges before trying to shoot a group in order to condition the barrel with the new ammo.

Best,

Trad A. Non
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think I understand Trad. I had just cleaned the barrel and only shot 3 times with the Remmington ammo. Of course previous to the cleaning I had fired perhaps 25 shots with the Rem Ammo.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I think there is a chance that the stock bedding is pushing more on one side of the barrel or the other. You might want to check that.
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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The grouping up and down, side to side with different loads is a very common thing. It has to do with rifling twist, bullet bearing surface, velocity, phase of the moon and alignment of the planets. Don't let it bugger you - find the grouping you like best and adjust the sights accordingly.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am the kind of person that likes to know the reason why but I am going to try very hard to let this go. I do not think it has to do with the bedding because two shots with factory hollow points and they are touching in the center box. Change to reloads and left they go, bigger charge goes even more left.

I am going to load some more and see what another day brings. It was windy and very cold so maybe it was me trying to stay warm that pulled them left. I know toward the end I was not taking as much time as at the beginning so the last ones shot with 36.5 grains could have something to do with me but I do not think that it hitting so far left was something I did. Yes this is going to be very interesting.
 

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The pressure spike from the different powders causes a different resonance in the barrel. This with the mentioned bedding, will change impact. Just the quirks of firearms.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Here's a good read:

Techshooters Shooting Pages

I'm afraid if you can't accept that sometimes these things happen, you may have to give up handloading. It isn't a big deal that different loads shoot to different points of impact. In fact it's practically the gospel truth.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I only said I like to know why things happen. But I think that it only makes it more interesting that you cannot ever really predict what is going to happen. Sort of a learning process which is right up my alley. I think if you could say add this and then that you will get perfectly shooting bullets then this would just be a way to shoot less expensively and even that is in my mind subject to debate. I like reading about quantum mechanics and you cannot predict things there either so I think I will be fine.

It just is pretty unexpected that a load could be predictably left. Now as far as that bedding goes it is a synthetic stock and I am not sure what I would be looking for, how to look for it and then what to do. But I guess that if I were to adjust it, the rem factory bullets would change their point of impact too.

I am just going to find the charge that give accurate results and adjust the scope to the point of impact.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Free float the barrel ahead of the chamber. Then you have eliminated any variable pressure that the stock is putting on the barrel (which can affect how the barrel vibrates).

It might eliminate the problem, or it might be exactly the same. But you'll know whether it is due to bedding. That's all we can do, eliminate one variable at a time.
 

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I am the kind of person that likes to know the reason why but I am going to try very hard to let this go. I do not think it has to do with the bedding because two shots with factory hollow points and they are touching in the center box. Change to reloads and left they go, bigger charge goes even more left.

I am going to load some more and see what another day brings. It was windy and very cold so maybe it was me trying to stay warm that pulled them left. I know toward the end I was not taking as much time as at the beginning so the last ones shot with 36.5 grains could have something to do with me but I do not think that it hitting so far left was something I did. Yes this is going to be very interesting.
You have exceeded the sweet spot in your home load. When that happens the pattern blows upo much like a shotgun pattern. Drop 2 grains and test again. This time you may have verticle, but it will prove what I said. Also when the temps warm up so will your load. You have to load for the same temps you plan on using the gun in. Let us know what happens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
One suggestion done

One of the suggestions was to free float the barrel. I had to check out a few videos to see how that would be done and along the way learned a bit about osculation and harmonics and I guess I can see how they could be at the root of my shots going left with these loads.

Anyway, I checked and the barrel is already free floated and if I am not mistaken the gun also has dual pillar bedded stocks. So the suggestion was a good one but thankfully it is not something more that I need to do.

I still have to look at that site suggestion and thought I would get to it tonight but looks like tomorrow is the ticket.

We are going to get some moderate temperatures the next few days so I will be loading down some shells to see what happens. For now I think that even though the load using 36 grains was left they were all very close together. 36.5 was a disaster.

I have to see if I can go down 2 more grains because the load range was not all that big to begin with. Also I have yet to see a load using the hornady v-max head. I double checked my bullets tonight and saw no sign of over pressure so I know that at the very least 36.5 is a safe load.

I will update as to what the low loads do hopefully by this weekend.
 

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"I only said I like to know why things happen. But I think that it only makes it more interesting that you cannot ever really predict what is going to happen. Sort of a learning process which is right up my alley. I think if you could say add this and then that you will get perfectly shooting bullets then this would just be a way to shoot less expensively and even that is in my mind subject to debate. I like reading about quantum mechanics and you cannot predict things there either so I think I will be fine.'

The answer to your original question is:
The reason that the bullet impact was left of the original aiming point is due to the oscillation of the barrel as the bullet travels down it, the barrel moves around in a circle from it's central axis creating a 'whip' like motion. Your bullet is exiting the barrel at a time when the muzzle is pointing to the left of this axis, whereas your previous load was exiting when the barrel was pointing true along it's axis.
This is also known as "barrel time", this can be adjusted by moving your bullets closer or further from the "lands" in small (.005") increments until you find where the bullet exits exactly true, or in other words, where the barrel has stopped it's motion. I would not adjust your bullet to be in the lands, start .010" from the lands to begin with and move the bullet further into the case with each .005" increment. This is how you find the 'sweet spot' for your particular rifle and load. Ladder testing is the easiest and least expensive way to do this, it is explained in detail in this section of the board.

If your barrel has shown no signs of shooting to one side or the other in the past with factory rounds, then your bedding is NOT causing this. Just adjust your scope for the desired zero and go shooting!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks Magnum. From all the replies I got including yours I learned some things that I am sure would take many years to learn on my own. It also helped me know which topics or issues I needed to research a bit more. Moving the bullet closer or farther from the lands is one example of something that I had not considered. That being said, this is a new gun and I have only shot one type of ammo through it so I guess it is just as likely that the other ammo shot right and the reloads shoot true but left because of my scope adjustment. Since I am new I have yet to either buy the tool or set up a bullet to check what the overall maximum case length could be. Probably the wrong words but where you check how long the bullet would be if it hit the lands which I also know is not where you want a bullet to be. I built these reloads to the exact COL listed in all the books and literature I have seen. I was going to check to see how long the factory loads were but have not.

The factory loads were hollow points so would I then add the length added by the ballistic tip to compare or just to the end of the bullet?
 
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