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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently purchased a new .22 pump rifle. I zeroed it at 25 yards with all three of the above rimfire ammunition types. Why, after zeroing with .22LR then checking the point of impact at the same range with .22 short and .22 long ammo, did these lower velocity rounds impact higher on the target than the .22LR? In fact, the .22 long POI was about two inches above the .22LR, and the .22 short impacted about two inches above the .22 long. I would have thought that at a close range like that there would be little difference in POI and, if anything, the slower moving short and long rounds would strike just a little lower than the faster .22LR rounds, all other things being equal of course.
 

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The best explanation is 'It just does that', some guns more than others.
 
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You must be holding the rifle upside down. . Or it could be the target. . To fix this problem just turn the target 180° around ..
 

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Way to treat a new member guys! 🙄

The different POIs could be explained because the slower bullets remain in the barrel longer as the rifle recoils, exiting when the muzzle is pointed higher than with the LR cartridges. This is usually more pronounced in handguns than rifles though.



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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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Way to treat a new member guys! 🙄

The different POIs could be explained because the slower bullets remain in the barrel longer as the rifle recoils, exiting when the muzzle is pointed higher than with the LR cartridges. This is usually more pronounced in handguns than rifles though.



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Yep, what he said. You will find that with pretty much any firearm.

Welcome

RJ
 

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Way to treat a new member guys! 🙄

The different POIs could be explained because the slower bullets remain in the barrel longer as the rifle recoils, exiting when the muzzle is pointed higher than with the LR cartridges. This is usually more pronounced in handguns than rifles though.



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That's a good explanation as relates to handguns and rifles that have enough recoil to produce some degree of muzzle lift during recoil. I know it does not take much movement to displace the POI substantially, but less so at 25 yards. I'm not sure that's the culprit here, as I doubt the short and long produce enough recoil to lift much of anything, nor the LR for that matter. He doesn't say how he was shooting...from a rest (hard or soft) or off hand, prone, against a tree or top of a fence post. That could make a difference. I suspect something else is at hand here... harmonics or ? I would like to see a super slow motion of the muzzle from primer ignition through bullet exiting the muzzle before I would believe the muzzle rise theory. Or, it could be like Jack said...'just because'.
 

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Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
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I've duplicated the same thing but without 22 longs in a Remington 510 Targetmaster but didn't put two n two together until just now.

RJ
 

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The Shadow (Moderator)
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all other things being equal of course.
Welcome.

I think that is your problem, they aren't equal. Whether a dwell time issue as suggested, or a harmonic issue from the different components being used; things are different. There isn't only a single primer compound, or single powder(only variable by amount). So there could be several things fighting you on this one. 😉

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the comments everyone. I was shooting from a rest (sandbag on a picnic table anyway). Also, the bullet weights are as follows: .22 short - 27gn, .22 long - 29 gn, .22 LR - 36 gn. Advertised velocities (I haven't chronographed them): .22 short - 1105fps, .22 long - 1215fps, .22 LR - 1280fps. So, obviously all other things weren't equal. It's just kind of perplexing and I couldn't come up with a reason for the seemingly non-sensical results. Dwell time and and harmonics, especially with such light bullets, seem the most likely explanations.
 

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Thanks for the comments everyone. I was shooting from a rest (sandbag on a picnic table anyway). Also, the bullet weights are as follows: .22 short - 27gn, .22 long - 29 gn, .22 LR - 36 gn. Advertised velocities (I haven't chronographed them): .22 short - 1105fps, .22 long - 1215fps, .22 LR - 1280fps. So, obviously all other things weren't equal. It's just kind of perplexing and I couldn't come up with a reason for the seemingly non-sensical results. Dwell time and and harmonics, especially with such light bullets, seem the most likely explanations.
As 'they' say, 'your results may vary', and without chronographing those loads in that rifle you won't know for sure, but with those 'advertised velocities' the 'barrel dwell time' does not seem a plausible explanation. If anything, the lighter bullet weights of the short and long would produce less recoil than the LR, and with not that much difference in muzzle velocity, one would expect the opposite result at the target...the short and long 'should' impact lower on the target, no?
 

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Just for grins, an interesting experiment might be to try some 22 BB and CB caps (if you could find them!) in that rifle to see where they impact on the target.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
As 'they' say, 'your results may vary', and without chronographing those loads in that rifle you won't know for sure, but with those 'advertised velocities' the 'barrel dwell time' does not seem a plausible explanation. If anything, the lighter bullet weights of the short and long would produce less recoil than the LR, and with not that much difference in muzzle velocity, one would expect the opposite result at the target...the short and long 'should' impact lower on the target, no?
I agree in general. However, the barrel dwell time also will affect the timing, and therefore possibly, the displacement effect of the barrel whip (i.e. harmonics). I know these are closely related. But chamber pressure and other variables also come into play I suspect. In any case, with relatively low powered rimfire ammunition, I wouldn't have expected the variation to be quite as noticeable at 25 yards. Also, the rifle has a fairly heavy 18" barrel. I guess I also shouldn't be too surprised with so much variation in rimfire ammunition and such small case capacities that almost anything can happen. I suppose you could say it's the quantum mechanics effects of tiny ammunition!
 

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While harmonics always exist, the amount of dispersion difference (2" for each load) at 25 yards sure seems (to me) to be excessive for that to be the reason. 'Barrel whip' may be a good term to illustrate a principle or condition, it is certainly a very liberal use of the word 'whip' as relates to an 18" heavy barrel 22 rifle when one attempts to envision that effect in a literal sense!;):) Yeah, I know (and I have been there) rimfire 'barrel tuners' attempt to corral barrel whip in a consistent fashion to 'ensure' the bullet exits the muzzle at the repeatable precise time.:rolleyes::cry:
Similar to loading centerfire ammo, sometimes loads with the same bullet and very similar ballistics just simply hit the target at [sometimes significantly] different points. I think that is what is happening here.
It would also be interesting to take some of those same lots of ammo and duplicate the 'test' with a different rifle to see if the results are duplicated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The case length of CCI Stingers is a few thousandths longer than a standard .22LR. They function fine in most guns chambered for .22LR but can be problematic in some with really tight tolerances. I expect it can certainly cause POI shift as well.
 

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I never was a big fan of the Stingers for small game...too destructive! When they came out in 1975, with a marketing release that bordered on a 'sliced bread' analogy, I 'bought into it' thinking they'd be great for squirrel hunting. First, I found they were not as accurate (in my firearms) as what I was used to and wanted. Second, I thought they were louder. Third, body shots tore things up a bit more than I wanted. I remember once I was out hunting with my TC Contender with a 10" octagon barrel when I shot a big fox squirrel in the head at about 30 feet on a limb of a big Oak tree. When I picked him up, the skull was multi fragmented (read...mush!) and the bullet did not even exit. In head shots, I guess that's okay, but you can't always make head shots. For varmints or pest control, they are likely a good option, but I had other firearms for that purpose.
 

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Long old guy ramble.


We get interested in other’s question..esp. the ones that seem simple, but turn out to be complex.

I just always liked pump .22’s. Winchesters, Remingtons, Rossi clones, Taurus clones, Savage, Noble, etc. Not a collector, were just working guns that passed though.

Some (that were able) were scoped, some tank sighted, most were open iron. While I didn’t consider them target guns, they did see some paper shooting.

Good clean oldies got valuable, for what I was doing, would be better to beat up a clone.

Most of the other action types would “kind of feed” the shorter rounds. Not too many “other action types” were made to function with all three lengths on .22RF’s. That was the draw to pumps...they cycled normally with nearly anything…..22 shorts and CB’s got used often.

They all seemed to show more shift than other rifle types. 4” of total spread is more than I’ve found unless I was running .22ammo that was extremely different (CB caps, non lead, 60gr.,sub-sonic, hyper sonic, etc). Basically trying to make it happen.

Horizontal shifts and vertical shifts….most gave a bit of both. Do not remember anything that spread as far at short range as the 4” you mention, other than ammo that was so inaccurate the “groups” were just kind of random holes.

Current ammo situation makes that kind of testing near impossible.

Gave up on the “why”...sometimes it just is what it is. So long as the groups were always in the same place and the same size when tested, it was a useful .22.

IF I found just a vertical difference between ammo (say .22 short Vs. .22LR)… open sights with a step elevator sometimes would make that a one step difference….other times, I’d have to file one of the steps to get that one-step effect.

I put it down to barrel vibrations and changes in stress in a “wiggly” system. Tube mags, a moving fore end that gets shucked back and forth...they do seem to respond to grip pressure. Some are better at isolating the forearm mechanics than others.
 

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Just saying in my experience, that 'Stingers' are one shot kills on feral cats, skunks and the alike. CB caps are really good too. Stingers hit like no other round. Accuracy in the Wife's model 39a would make me sound like a liar. The nicest thing I ever did, or the greatest mistake I ever made, was to give her that rifle. So, thank you dear for the CZ 457 LUX in .22 lr and I will meet you at the range.
 

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Subsonic rounds in my cz went high and to the right compared to the standard lr I was using , I was surprised at how much difference there was .
I pretty much just use rws subs in it nowadays.

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Just one of those things…..rifles shoot well what they want to shoot well, no matter what we want.


In days when we could easily get an assortment of .22’s to try out, would try out as many as I could find. If ONE hyper-vel .22LR shot well, really didn’t care which brand.


Give you that Stingers have changed from their introduction….was not pleased with the early ones. Do believe they got better, but back then they got the name “Stinkers” for a reason.


In the original posters case, the shift between different ammo is the problem.


Value of “Why” would assume we have some way of stopping it from happening. We like to think we can control things. Sometimes, we can’t.


So long as the shots form up into clusters in the same place each time…and you know what you loaded into the rifle….should be able to hold a bit low or a bit high.
 
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