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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys:

Anybody shooting the new 22 TCM cartridge from Armscor? It is a 40 grain 22 caliber hollow point traveling at approximately 2000 fps from a handgun and approximately 2800 fps from a 22 in rifle. All the handguns seem to be built on the 1911 setup. I am waiting for the double stack Tactical version to come in.

I have one of the new rifles and it seems well built. I put on an older Tasco Scope 4X16 I had laying around and bore sighted it. I haven't had time to get to the range yet.

I read some write ups on line and it seems to be shooting 1in MOA at 100 yards with three shot groups. They said it opened up to 2 in groups with five shots.

Just wondering if anybody here had some actual experience with it yet.

PAH
 

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In addition to being rimmed, the 218 Bee is more than .300" longer and generates about 350fps more velocity. It can be realistically loaded with heavier bullets. The 22 TCM is meant to shoot lots of really little bullets going pretty darn fast. Other than being a curiosity, I don't really see it garnering much attention.
 

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If I'm correct this is a necked down 9mm cartridge. A friend has one, don't know the brand of the gun, that has an interchangeable 9 barrel for it. Seems like a nice alternative to have two different calibers you could shoot just by changing a barrel out. I can't tell you how the friend likes it as he just told me he hasn't shot it yet! Some guys just gotta have the new thing. I'm ok with that.
 

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Should have done my home work before I posted. Parent case is .223 or the Nato round. So I'm wondering about the 9mm loading in the pistol. Is the 9 going to fir that cut off 223 or will we have to reduce?
 

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The 9 mm is suposed to cycle very well with just a barrel swap.
 

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I had an Armscor rifle. Well let me correct that; I had two Armscor rifles. Allow me to preface my opinion by saying I really liked the look, fit, and feel of the rifle. My first rifle was well built and a genuinely nice looking firearm. However, accuracy was horrid. Best I could get with factory ammo was about 4" at 50 yds with a bench and front and rear bags. I had a 4x12x40 Nikon scope mounted so seeing the target was not a problem, nor was it the reason for the deplorable accuracy. BTW, the rifle uses rings designed for 22 lr grooved receiver instead of your normal ring and base design (odd in my opinion, but didn't cause issues).
I contacted Armscor about my rifle and its accuracy problems. They promptly sent me a return label and paid shipping for the return. About 4 weeks later another rifle was shipped to me (apparently they agreed with my accuracy claim). The replacement rifle was an abomination! Horrible workmanship on the interior of the stock and fit of metal to stock. However the real problem was the barrel. I tore up every patch I ran down it. The rifling was so chattered it literally ripped the patches. Your coyld easily see the tool chatter marks with the naked eye the entire length of the barrel. I never fired it. Cucastomer service again promptly sent a return label and I received a refund check for my original purchase price. That was well and good and I did appreciate that, however they didn't cover the cost for the $200 worth of ammo I bought and shot in the rifle.
I have since chatted with several other center-fire replacewho bought these rifles and quality of product seems hit or miss, with misses being the norm. I was able to get a 1" group at 50 yds with my handloads but with only one bullet and I had to work to get that. I do know some who can get almost 1" groups at 100 yds, but these seem to be the exception. I loved the cartridge and the idea but I've bitten twice from them. I was looking for a center-fire replacement for 22 mag and the TCM would fit that nicely, but quality control just doesnt seem to be high on their priority list.

All I can say is "Buyer Beware" and check it out throughly before laying your money down.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi VA BB

Well I think you are correct about the hit and miss. The rifle I have in general seems to be ok in the looks department. The trigger pull could be a lot better. I gave the bore a good cleaning, it comes soaked in cosmoline. I took it to the range today to put some rounds through it. I sighted in at 35 yards, our 25 yard was being occupied and got it on paper.

After the first shot the bolt was VERY hard to get open and extract the shell. At first I thought it was stuck fast. But I finally got it open. After some more rounds it did loosen up a little bit, but not much. I was shooting two shot groups at 35 yards just to get it sighted in, they were less than an inch apart.

I moved back to 100 yards. I must say that extraction of the shell sucks. If you do it rather slowly the empty shell just lays in the gun. It was about 85 degrees out with 97% humidity. So it wasn't the best of conditions per say. I was getting about 1.5 to 2 in groups with three shot strings. I only ran through about 25 shots. I was expecting better results. I had my Chrony with me but it was to hot to bother and set it up. Write ups say it should be getting about 2800 fPS.

So with the some what poor accuracy, bolt really hard to open after shot, extraction of empty just laying there, heavy trigger, I would say that this rifle needs some work.

Over a year ago I grabbed one of the new .17 WSM rifle from Savage. Talk about a lousy feeling Tuberware rifle, but it shot better than the TCM 22. Problem was and still is, ammo is non existent. Ruger just came out with a new Rifle chambered for the .17 WSM. It is Stainless Steel with a brown walnut stock.

I don't know if I am going to keep the Armscor TCM 22 Rifle. I gave the bore a good cleaning after session. Maybe one more range session. My CZ .17 HRM will out shoot the TCM 22 at 100 yards any day of the week.

Regards PAH
 

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If you decide you will keep your rifle the trigger isnt too hard to make better. Simply replace the factory spring with a spring from a ball point pen, just make sure to do a drop test to confirm its safe. I did a youtube video on it when I had my rifle. You are definitely getting better accuracy than I got from my rifle. The bolt was sticky on extraction on my rifle as well. Good luck with it.
 

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I have a question, Given that the .22 Reed Express is based on the 7.62x25 ie 9mm base diameter and has 2 grains of water more capacity, why the .22TCM as opposed to the .22 Reed Express?
 

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I had the 1911 in O.D. green, with the 9mm barrel.
The 9mm was o.k. , shooting the TCM was pretty fun.
So little recoil you'd think it was a .22 rimfire, blast like a 16 inch gun on a battleship (pretty impressive at night), and flat shooting as heck. Accuracy was good, and I was getting around 2050 fps.
It fed very well.

The green Duracoat was wearing off the edges of the slide and some chipping after a year, so I re-did the slide in Coyote Cerakote.
The round is loaded to .38 Super length, not 9mm.

 

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Ditto what vabigbore said, I have/had two Armscor rifles in 22 TCM, still have the last one. The first one would shoot 6 inch groups off the bench @50 yds with an eighteen power scope. The front action screw wasrun in so far that it bradded the end in the barrel threads and the barrel literally had only 1/2 crown (that was weird) and the bore looked worse that a 65 year old cast sewer pipe I replaced for an elderly Lady several years ago. I called the US office for Armscor and they sent a pickup label and in about 3 weeks had a new rifle that will group 1 inch and most of the time usually a lot better @100 yds. I think the main problem with their TCM rifles have been with ones under the 5000 serial number range, the ones above seem to be OK.


Steve........
 

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Old thread I know...but interesting. I posted this info elsewhere previously but thought it worth reposting here.


I have a CZ 527 American that was re-barreled with a Lilja 1:7 twist SS barrel...LOVE IT!!! This has become one of my all-time favorite sub 200-yard cotton, jack, gopher, & prairie dog CF rifles. It performs with amazing accuracy (I mainly keep it to 200 yds or less) with absolute explosive devastation & destruction...way more than most think. They do NOT crawl away!

Without being too graphic, neck shots on PD's & jacks result in 10' arial decapitation. Gophers?...well...if you hit them, no follow-up's are necessary.

Part of this performance is the bullet itself very destructive, it performs very well on critters. A friend & I believe that a huge part of it is the 1:7 twist that helps extracts the true performance this round is capable of from a rifle. I.e. 2-2.5x the rotation of Armscor's rifles with the same velocity equals absolute & humane elimination. Accuracy is completely maintained & bullets stay intact...until impact & then do their job. Keep in mind...we are not talking 300-500 yard ranges from this pistol round.

That all being said, I'm unsure on serious penetration as it works very well for my applications thus far. I have not tried them on anything bigger than PD's or Jacks yet. (Like most here, I have several others for that application.) That said, should the opportunity present itself, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on badgers, foxes, groundhogs, or even coyotes...under the noted 200 yds.

I believe that most Armscor rifles, like my older 22 Hornets shipped with 1:16 twist barrels. Among other things and besides the light strike issues of using a modified rimfire rifle...IF Armscor had made it with a fast twist barrel on their M22 TCM BA (like they provably should have in the first place), this rifle would have performed much more impressively like it was intended. In the end, I just didn't think it was a worthy platform to upgrade although the repeater would have been nice over the CZ which is effectively now a single shot.

Yes, twist makes that big of a difference! The bullets they use are essentially the ones originally intended for the 22 Hornets...way back when. (maybe closer to 22 WMR?) If you were to spin them any faster back then, I have heard that they'd come apart...hence the slow 1:16 & 1:20 twist barrels etc for the original 22 Hornets & what perpetuates today. But...bullets are made better now when this is essentially a non-issue & do not come apart at these velocities or ranges. I believe that if Armscor's had a 1:7 twist or at least faster than 1:16, I would have kept one in spite of the other shortcomings of their rifle design. I really do very much like the high capacity & interchangeable magazines though.

A few other really great things about using this rifle & round combo for my walk-about rifle. It is so nice to walk around with a large pocket full of ammo...similar to a pocket full of 22 WMR's. Unlike the pistol, the report is minimal compared to many other small calibers, nearly zero kick & the barrel seems to never get hot even on rapid successive shots. (As rapid as I can load it anyway.) About the only thing I'd wish for is cheaper factory ammo...don't we always. The reality is it isn't bad If you think of it as small-caliber rifle ammo. YMMA, JMHO etc.

Cheers,
__
TOU
 

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The bullets they use are essentially the ones originally intended for the 22 Hornets...way back when. (maybe closer to 22 WMR?) If you were to spin them any faster back then, I have heard that they'd come apart...hence the slow 1:16 & 1:20 twist barrels etc for the original 22 Hornets & what perpetuates today. But...bullets are made better now when this is essentially a non-issue & do not come apart at these velocities or ranges.
If the bullets were originally designed around the Hornet, the limitation is RPM not velocity. Similarly they didn't just get better with time, the jacket is as light as it is for a reason, given the velocitors limits for the Hornet.

Here is some math for you, so you can see the RPMs

7 Twist - 2800 * 720 ÷ 7 = 288,000 RPM
16 Twist - 2800 * 720 ÷ 16 = 126,000 RPM
20 twist - 2800 * 720 ÷ 20 = 100,800 RPM

Not near my Hornady books at the moment, but believe the honest Hornet bullets were limited to something like 230,000 RPM. Individual barrel finish can move the ultimate number a fair amount, but this will let you see the difference.

Cheers
 

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Really have to work at it to blow up a bullet from RPM…..but you can manage it. Get that odd looking “gray rope” hanging in the air for split second.


Do remember reading (although now I know not where) the fault in many calculations was that they didn’t include the stress of rifling to the jacket. The lands put in nice long stress focus right angles, a rougher bore or deeper rifling can make them come apart in flight where a less stressed bullet survives.


Old post...but I like the idea of the tiny cased .22. I’d be really surprised if you could manage to drive a .22 Hornet made bullet fast enough to self destruct…..but if the bore is rough enough (or tall sharp lands)..it might even do it with factory loads.
 

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Perhaps in that application it would be difficult, but for essentially any other centerfire rifle it isn't very difficult. Especially the faster twist 223's.

Cheers
 

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I guess it would have been more accurate to say that I understood that bullets potentially spinning apart back in the day was the theory behind the slow 1:16 twist barrels of the 22 Hornet. That prevailing belief may have come into play in the rifles that Amscor released to shoot this round. Obviously, there were several quality control issues but this may also contribute to their poor performances. Granted, in comparison, my rifle was many times the cost built by one of the best. I guess my point on this, besides the obvious quality control issues, that Armscor could have made a better performing rifle with a faster twisting barrel.

My unoriginal theory is that other factors being equal, a bullet spinning at +2x the speed of another given bullet running at the same speed, if stable, will deliver far great devastation than the slower spinning bullet. I am seriously blown away about the damage done sub 200 yards. Admittedly, I have not shot many paper targets with it so won't speak to its full potential there. However, as a hunting round on squirrels, etc, in its effective range, is very satisfactory in my book. It is currently my favorite sub 200 walk-about CF & am more than satisfied with its lethality in this range.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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No doubt, spinning the bullet on the very edge of what it can tolerate in air, is going to have dramatic results on a critter. Glad it is working for you.
 

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We do like it when it "rains critter"...not sure it's any more humane....and probably where the whole "brush bucking" argument came from....but driving thin skinned bullets close to the edge is a prertty good way of achieving that effect.
 
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