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costeve

This is consistent with the difference between 223 and 5.56 mil-spec loadings that are discussed on ammoguide. The mil-spec guns are stronger. Most manufacturers will not list mil-spec loadings in fear they will be applied to the 223. I run a mil-spec load in my M4, which it likes very much.
 

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Don't read too much into comparing WC844 data to H335 data.

Every lot of WC844 is not identical to every lot of H335 just by the inference that H335 is surplus WC844.

I have one particular lot of WC844 (will provide the lot # if asked) and I can assure you that particular lot is WAY slower than any commercially sold lot of H335. Some might be slower, some might be faster, but mine is off by enough that you'd really notice it.

Works great, but I have to treat it like it is an entirely different powder than H335.

Why is it that much different? I don't know.

I do agree that freebore will for sure affect pressures, and should reduce them a bit. That alone should make the military 5.56 "max" data just a tad more than the civilian .223 "max" data. But not by a whole lot.
 

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I use both brass with no difference, but I'm shooting from a Savage axis using the .223 load data Once my die is set, it never changes.I may have hit the right throat and bullet weight my gun likes...ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE PRIMER PREP.
 

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i recently discovered that 223 Wylde is a 5.56 NATO chamber with a 223 Rem throat area. ( See Wikipedia) that will chamber 223 Rem or 5.56 NATO ammo interchangeably.

Just throwin that out for you.:p

THis is a great thread and I have black and bolt rifles and a 14 in their respective NATO and 223 chambers.

Just don't fire 5.56 NATO in a 223 Rem gun I have read and heed. That includes the reloads to the respective reloads appropriate chambers.

The 14 eats either ammo according to the owners manual.

223 - 5.56 diameter projectiles are fabulous!!!:D
 

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Call the Sierra Bulletsmiths and ask them??

the # used to be 1 800 bulletsmiths.. better check it. They give good advice and it DONT have to be about Sierra bullets. They dont discriminate.

Otherwise check the website for your powdermaker and see what they recommend. If they dont have 5.56 data email em and ask.
 

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i recently discovered that 223 Wylde is a 5.56 NATO chamber with a 223 Rem throat area. ( See Wikipedia) that will chamber 223 Rem or 5.56 NATO ammo interchangeably.

Just throwin that out for you.:p

THis is a great thread and I have black and bolt rifles and a 14 in their respective NATO and 223 chambers.

Just don't fire 5.56 NATO in a 223 Rem gun I have read and heed. That includes the reloads to the respective reloads appropriate chambers.

The 14 eats either ammo according to the owners manual.

223 - 5.56 diameter projectiles are fabulous!!!:D
A 5.56 chamber will fire .223 without a problem. What the .223wylde does is allows it to shoot both accurately. What I and many people experience when shooting .223rem in their 5.56x45 chambered rifles is poor accuracy. It's about twice the size groupings out to 100 yards. I can get a 1-1.5" group out of my colt with a 5.56 cartridge, 1:7 twist rifle. A similar load in .223 factory loads will yield slightly larger groups for me, somewhere around 2-2.5". The .223 Wylde barrel my bud's dad has, has shot both very accurately from what he's said.(he has a heavy barrel and he claims shots touching at 100 yards easy) That's my understanding of the Wylde barrel, it's going to be what I get my varmint rifle chambered in.
 

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A 5.56 chamber will fire .223 without a problem. What the .223wylde does is allows it to shoot both accurately. What I and many people experience when shooting .223rem in their 5.56x45 chambered rifles is poor accuracy. It's about twice the size groupings out to 100 yards. I can get a 1-1.5" group out of my colt with a 5.56 cartridge, 1:7 twist rifle. A similar load in .223 factory loads will yield slightly larger groups for me, somewhere around 2-2.5". The .223 Wylde barrel my bud's dad has, has shot both very accurately from what he's said.(he has a heavy barrel and he claims shots touching at 100 yards easy) That's my understanding of the Wylde barrel, it's going to be what I get my varmint rifle chambered in.
Yep, that's true. My RRA A4 and Elite CAR A4 middy both have Wylde chambers while my new S&W middy (son appropriated my RRA middy) has a NATO chamber. Both RRA's are much more accurate at long range (400-500 yds) than the S&W using the same ammo. In fact, my A4 is sub MOA using my 68grn Hornady handloads.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I have a RRA Lar 15 and it's the most accurate rifle I own, I have made up at least a dozen loads using various powders and bullet brands. My most recent load 25.5 gr of H4895 and the Nosler 50 gr varmit BT shot two groups measuring .978 and .456. Most accurate load so far is 25 gr Benchmark, 52 gr Sierra MK bullet, best group measured .256, I was using LC 13 cases and CCI 400 primers. It appears benchmark powder and Sierra bullets are the most accurate combination.
 

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Why do most gunmakers put a 1:9twist on the 223s.

Wouldnt a 1:8 be a compromise?? Or will that make light AND heavies shoot lousy?

I have a bolt and AR--1:9 both? The Ruger 77 wont shoot Nosler partitions (60 gr) worth beans (223).
 

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My 1 in 9 twist Savage bolt .223 shoots anything from 50 to 69 great, if I do my part with the shooting and the reloading. I haven't tried anything below 50, but I did try some 77 grainers and they began to keyhole.
 

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I have shot 60 grain Nosler Partitions, but found them too expensive for my target shooting. I only shot one box of them a few years back. I only tried Varget, between 24.5 and 26 grains. My best accuracy (1 1/2 inches at 100 yards) was with 26 grains. I didn't work on it too long because 55 and 60 grain V-Maxes and Ballistic Tips were much cheaper. So I am not an expert on the Partitions in .223. But my best accuracy and also the least expensive jacketed bullets I have used have been Nosler 55 grain tipped Varmageddons.
 

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Wow, great thread!! I have a Mil-Spec AR15. I will now have to get the build specs from the manufacturer.
Besides that I am reloading a lot of random brass all trimmed to .223 Specs. I am using CCI400 primers and (if it's still good) 24 gr. IMR 4064 powder, Hornady 55gr. fmjbt bullets.
Do I need to worry about pressure with this smaller chg. Just plinking at 100yd.

Thanks.
 

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223 vs 5.56x45

Military cases are heavier, (more brass with slightly less volume capacity). Outside case dimensions are identical. Military ammunition is typically loaded with heavier bullets, (62 grains is the most common). The the leade, (throat), is longer in the 5.56x45 mm chamber which creates a rifle that is less problematic but likely not as accurate. Most accuracy fanatics try to reduce bullet runout to improve accuracy. Military cases will handle higher pressure, however, many AR type rifles are capable of firing either round. I don't reload military ammo because of the difference in the cases. Military ammo has crimped primers so the primer pocket needs to be reamed to facilitate re-priming, (not a big deal since it is a one time step). The main reason I don't reload military cases is because the case volume is slightly different due to the heavier military case; this leads to a slight change in pressure between .223 and 5.56x45 brass when fired with identical powder charges. If you don't care about accuracy when shooting you can go ahead and mix cases; if accuracy matters stick with one or the other. A side note 5.56X45 factory ammo should not be fired in a firearm designated for .223 only. If I'm scrounging range brass I sort cases by manufacturer and don't mix during a shoot, (just because that's how I am). Some reloaders weigh every case and cull anything with too much variance within the same case manufacturer.
 

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Military cases are heavier, (more brass with slightly less volume capacity).
That's only true in 7.62. In 30-06 the military and commercial capacity differences are negligible for most applications. In 5.56, LC actually has slightly more internal capacity than its commercial counterparts. You will find a good comparison of weight and case water overflow capacity by scrolling about 1/3 of the way down on this page.

Notice the correspondence between weight and capacity doesn't always track. The Guatemalan IMG brass weighs 95.4 grains and has 30.1 grains of capacity, while the WCC99 is slightly heavier at 95.5 grains buy has slightly greater 30.5 grains of capacity. I've found with 7.62/.308W brass in the past that a difference in capacity is only predicted within about 20-25% by weight difference. You just have to measure water capacity if you want to be sure.

The advantage the military brass has in most semi-autos is the heads are double-struck and significantly harder than most commercial brass. This withstands hard extraction better and with less rim bending than softer brass does.

The poor weight to volume Correspondance occurs for two reasons. One is different brands use different alloys with differences in density. But the bigger contributor is the exterior tolerances for the head. Even if you keep the height of the head the same so it doesn't impact internal capacity, the differences in diameter, rim thickness, rim relief angle, extractor groove depth and extractor relief angle can add up to significant weight difference. I've calculated it for 7.62/308W size head before and it came out to over seven grains of difference being possible without changing internal capacity. Real cases never get all the way the tolerance extremes, but seeing three or four grains difference from the head tolerances is well within the expected range of variation.

The differences in 5.56 and 223 pressure has a lengthy and convoluted history. The cartridge was originally developed at 52,000 CUP, and when Remington commercialized it as the 223 Remington in 1962, that pressure number is what they used, together with the original chamber dimensions. Over the next couple of years, in order to maximize the number of rounds fired between failures, the military altered the chamber dimensions, making the chamber bigger, and when it finally made the cartridge an official military cartridge as M193, that chamber expansion had dropped the pressure to 50,000 psi by copper crusher (what SAAMI and the Aberdeen lab techs call CUP, but the tech manual editors insist on calling psi, and just expecting everyone to know what instrument measured the pressure, leading to a great deal of confusion).

So, here's the really confusing part. When the U.S. pushed NATO to adopt the same cartridge, NATO found it didn't pass their minimum standards for 350 m penetration and accuracy range. So they got FN to develop the SS109 with 62-grain projectile and operating at a pressure of 55,000 psi by copper crusher (CUP). When SAAMI took the reference ammunition for the 223 Remington that was developed in copper crushers and fired them in the conformal piezoelectric transducer, the peak number they got was 55,000 psi (by transducer). Those two different unit numbers, both with the same magnitude of 55,000 have caused a lot of misunderstanding of the differences in the test standards and what is expected of a cartridge. Also, as powders have gotten better, the number that allows reaching the military requirements for velocity and gas port pressure with lower peak pressures has increased. As a result, what you really get by way of pressure in 223 and 5.56 ammunition is often not really different. This test shows the same ammunition fired in two AR's and one sporting rifle, and the two AR's gave the highest and lowest pressure reading with the sporting rifle in the middle.

There is no question the SS109 and its U.S. counterpart, the M855 should be running about 10% higher in pressure than the 223, but they don't always. In a SAAMI conformal pressure transducer, they should read about 58,000 psi. In the NATO EPVAT system using Kistler pressure transducers sampling propellant gas through a channel (aka, a channel transducer) these same cartridges read a maximum of 4300 bar or 62,366 psi. The CIP adopted that number and use the same channel transducer except where the NATO transducers sample gas from the bore just in front of the case mouth, CIP uses a point 25 mm forward of the head and samples pressure through a hold drilled into the case. This channel location tends to read a couple thousand psi higher than the NATO case mouth location, so European commercial 223 Remington can be expected to read about 60,400 psi in a NATO test barrel, and about 56,200 psi in a SAAMI conformal transducer. I have no way to confirm those numbers; they are just based upon employing averages. It would be fun to have a complete equipment setup to see the differences in action, but I can confirm I have one declassified military document that shows conformal pressure transducer readings of 58,100 psi is used for one particular 5.56 round.

Today, the new "green" military round with lead-free everything is the M855A1. It is being loaded to even higher pressures than the SS109 and original M855 and is reported to cause increased throat wear. Personally, knowing that lot variation allows over 18% excursion above the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure (MAP; the number we usually see used as a pressure limit) by an individual round among the ten used to reach that average and that either number is still safely below proof pressures, I don't have a problem shooting M855 in a 223 chamber. I just recognize that I am going to see the barrel wear out faster if I do much of that.
 
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