Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 88 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
New member. I recently purchased a Japanese arisaka type 38 in an auction. However on arrival it was a type 38, however it had a barrel swap and rechambering for 25-08. The auction company does not care if they miss labeled the rifle caliber and they don't accept returns on internet purchases, so I guess it is time to get into reloading or sell the rifle.

I have never reloaded before and I am having difficulty finding reloading components and reloading data for 25-08. Where do you find brass? Is there a method to modify 308 brass down to 25-08? Any tips and tricks? Is it better to just sell it? What is the main use of this type of wildcat round? Please help. Thanks, Joaograndao
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,948 Posts
Welcome to the shooters forum.

I would consider it a bonus that you ended up with a 25-08 over the Japanese chambering. Is the rifle also sporterised?
Reworking .308 brass is a simple deal, just run it through your full length sizing die. Since it has a custom chamber check the neck has enough chamber clearance. Pay attention so as not to create excess chamber clearance by pushing the shoulder back too far. Think I'd try fireforming several pieces of brass. RCBS and Redding will offer standard dies or make what you need depending on shoulder angle or case taper. They generally want several pieces of fired brass as a pattern.

There should be load data available online. If not being able to locate any, a person could use data for a .260 Remington using a similar weight bullet. Just start low and be careful working up.

Without knowing how the rifle was built, I would hazard a guess it would make a fine big game and predator rifle.
 

·
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
Joined
·
23,866 Posts
That's right in the middle between a .243 Win and a .260 Rem. Maybe split the difference between the two chamberings with similar weight bullets? Cartridges of the World 10 edition shows a "250 Humdinger" which is a .243 case necked up to .250, blown out case with a 45 deg shoulder. H4350 and IMR4831 are choice powders
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I have never reloaded. How do you fire form brass?

I was buying the type 38 because my grandpa has a brought back type 38 that is not functional and he wanted to try shoot it. As it was not safe I bought it so he could shoot it.

How much is a custom 25-08 rifle worth? I did not pay much but always worried about getting ripped off.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,123 Posts
You're gonna have to reload for it, hang it on the wall, or sell it to someone who can use it. You might also look around to see if you can find an original Arisaka barrel in decent condition, might be one way out of this situation. Anyway -

Reloading data will not be standardized, however, it will have very nearly identical performance to the .257 Roberts, a standard (but not interchangeable) cartridge. If someone gave me a .25-08, I'd find a set of dies, scrounge up some .308 Win or .243 Win or .260 Rem brass, and start reloading with the lowest .257 Roberts data, and work up.

Maybe not the best project for a beginner, till you get some reloading time (with standard cartridges) under your belt.

Good luck.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBelk

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,948 Posts
There are several ways to fire form.
Three of the methods I often use;
1) False shoulder, this is used when the case has excessive clearance in the chamber. The false shoulder is formed by a resizing die that leaves a step in the neck, ahead of the shoulder, that allows the case to head space off of it. When ironing cases out this way I use a bullet and a good charge of rifle powder.
2) Bullet jam, this one the bullet makes contact with the rifling prevent the case from having a loose fit in the chamber. When doing this the load will be full power.
3) Cereal method, I use this when the case is sized to fit the chamber snugly. Try about 10 grains of pistol powder (800x) with one square of toilet paper tamped over it. Fill the case to the bottom of the neck with corn meal and use a wax plug to seal.
When properly fire formed the shoulder angles should have sharp edges and not be rounded at the transitions.

Concerning value, afraid I can't give you a good answer. So much depends on the condition of the rifle and the quality of the build.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
The value of any custom gun is what someone is willing to pay.
The 25 Souper is decent round. It will out perform the 243 in terminal ballistics. Full pressure loads are hard on barrels but you can eliminate most of that by shooting heavier bullets or using lighter loads with less than maximum loads.
I suggest getting new brass to start your reloading process. Run a new 308 case through your 25 Souper and trim to the length you want to work with. I do the same thing for my 257 Roberts but I start with 7x57 brass. Your first rounds should be fired with medium loads for the bullet you choose. That choice depends on what you intend to shoot with it. 70 to 87 grain Speer TNT bullets are good for varmints and for deer you can choose any game bullet from 100 to 120. The 117 grain bullets are most popular in the 25s but you can find good bullets in a wide range of types and uses.
After firing you should measure the case to the shoulder datum with a comparator or with a Wilson gauge for that cartridge if it is available. The Wilson gauges are cartridge specific while the comparators are not. After taking measurements you can adjust your sizing die to push the shoulder back just 0.002" (two thousandths of an inch).
Because you are dealing with a wildcat cartridge the only way to be sure of things like shoulder angle and chamber length is to measure it. The die you buy has to have the same shoulder angle and your trim length may depend on the chamber. If you are not a detail oriented person this will either frustrate you or teach you to be more detail oriented until it is all set up. After setup it is like reloading any other cartridge.
Chamber pressure doesn't seem to be too much of a problem but I would be careful because the round that the action was designed for was a tad anemic compared to the modified round. Just be careful as you work your loads up. It might be a good idea to have a good riflesmith look it over. He may be able to measure the shoulder angle for you too.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,345 Posts
You will have more than the value of the gun in the reloading gear you'll need to get it shooting.
Re-sizing for a wildcat is not for beginning reloaders, either.

How do you know it's a 25 Souper? Has it had a chamber cast? Headspace check? I'd be sending a letter to the auction company with a copy to their state's AG. What they did was dangerous.
 

·
Beartooth Regular
Joined
·
2,135 Posts
You will have more than the value of the gun in the reloading gear you'll need to get it shooting.
Re-sizing for a wildcat is not for beginning reloaders, either.

How do you know it's a 25 Souper? Has it had a chamber cast? Headspace check? I'd be sending a letter to the auction company with a copy to their state's AG. What they did was dangerous.
I agree with this. The rifle may be sold as an antique or collectible, but I'd think safety considerations should still be observed.

It's also just my opinion, but I don't think reloading for a wildcat should be a beginner's first project, either. At least, not unless they have a knowledgeable mentor to work with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBelk

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
I will echo the advice to get a chamber cast done. Is the barrel actually stamped with "25-08" or "25 Souper"?

If you decide you don't want to mess with reloading, please send me a private message. I might be interested in buying the rifle from you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lowball

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,304 Posts
I have never reloaded before and I am having difficulty finding reloading components and reloading data for 25-08.
Where do you find brass?
Is there a method to modify 308 brass down to 25-08?
Any tips and tricks?
Is it better to just sell it?
What is the main use of this type of wildcat round?
Please help. Thanks, Joaograndao
Components are easy, data is around but sparse.
Use any 308, 243, 260 brass.
A standard full length sizing die will easily do what you need. Dies are available from RCBS, or Lee will make you a set.
It's use, is just like the 243/260. Heavy deer down to vermin.

If you use the search function here, search for threads by a member named "Rocky Raab". He had a webpage with reloading data that has since been removed. But with the wayback machine, the data still exists.

Cheers
 
  • Like
Reactions: shreck

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,970 Posts
New member. I recently purchased a Japanese arisaka type 38 in an auction. However on arrival it was a type 38, however it had a barrel swap and rechambering for 25-08. The auction company does not care if they miss labeled the rifle caliber and they don't accept returns on internet purchases, so I guess it is time to get into reloading or sell the rifle.

I have never reloaded before and I am having difficulty finding reloading components and reloading data for 25-08. Where do you find brass? Is there a method to modify 308 brass down to 25-08? Any tips and tricks? Is it better to just sell it? What is the main use of this type of wildcat round? Please help. Thanks, Joaograndao
k

I started reloading a chambering that most people said I shouldn’t start with.
You have got your self a potential jem.
Your gun is supposed to have the strongest action out of all the army guns from the era, so that is good-safe- not weak.
25-08 is a great cartridge , reloading is daunting before you have done it because people make it sound so.IMO .
There is ways to go about it that are not.
If you told a new car driver every possible outcome that could possibly go wrong eeek .
Yet teenagers and grandmas that struggle to open a can of soda drive quiet safely.
Because they stick to a few basic rules.
You can use Winchester 243 cases , there neck is very close .
One that has been fired and not changed since will have a throat size very similar.
243-257 not a huge difference.
You can buy a powder called trail boss , that is a great powder to start with until you get comfortable with loading.
The thing that might cause a fired or just empty 243 case not to fit in you gun is the shoulder on the case, some times people change the shape of the shoulder as well as the neck size even the length of the case might get changed from the original.
‘Fire forming’ is just using the Presure gun powder makes to blow out you case so it fits neatly into your chamber.
Trail boss and a wax bung made by pushing the primed and charged case into a candle so there is a wax bung in the throut works great .
The thing is though the case has to fit well enough so the shoulder goes up against the inside enough to hold the case against the bolt so the firing pin hits the primer.
In an easy case scenario it is easy ,obviously in a case were there has been to many changes more needs to be done.

You can circum navigate all these problems by doing a cast of your chamber which is actually a very easy and really interesting thing to do.
There is tons of info on how to do it yourself or pay a smith to do it.
My advice is to google how to chamber cast and give it a go before you make any decisions.
I use Jbelks method he told me on this forum how to do it with sulfher of all things, ridiculously simple and cheap.
I am very happy I tried it.

Maybe all you need is a cheap press and a die set .
You mite even Eva me to use a 26-06 lee wack a mole set that has been adjusted , you could be shooting that gun with your own set up for a very small out lay if you take your time , do some research and learn what the few basic rules are that make it safe.
There is an amazing amount of easy to find information on reloading available.

Just don’t get bamboozeled

I have an old 25-08 Mauser I got real cheap ,Baught dies and loaded Bullets .
Hasn’t cost any more than any other gun to load simply because I did the research and learnt the rules.
99% of what I needed I got from here .

I have been reloading for about 5 years , I find it hard sometimes not to regret starting so late in life.
It is a lot easier to do and safer than other jobs I have done and do as long as I stick to the few basic rules that make it so.

So relax take your time and enjoy.

Cheers.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,345 Posts
A set of dies is going to cost more than a hundred bucks. I rest my case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
A set of dies is going to cost more than a hundred bucks. I rest my case.
And the supposition is that the rifle is worth less than that? Let's say the OP has $100 into the gun and is able to enjoy shooting it with another $200 in dies and reloading components. Is it not worth $300 to have a firearm you like to shoot?

I've got a 7.7x58 Arisaka my dad sporterized into my first deer rifle. You couldn't buy it from me for any price, even though it wouldn't sell for much in the open market. Sometimes I think guys who have made a living in the gun industry lose sight of the fact that some guns are worth far more than the sum of their parts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,345 Posts
That's the difference is between 'value' and 'sentiment'. My first 'custom rifle' was done at 14 years old. I still have it, but the reality is, it's not worth a hundred bucks at a gun show, but it can't be bought while me and my son are still alive.

If the OP has more than a hundred bucks in a remodeled Jap, he got took! I see no reason to put more money in it, but he might choose to. Having a set of dies (assuming the chamber is 'right') will add to the value of the whole deal, no doubt, but it's going to be expensive in time and money.

I've seen a ton of home-made rifles and grew up in an era when it was common. Over-polished, re-blued, semi-inlet American walnut with plastic furniture and a Star barrel. Inletted in a hurry, sanded without shaping first and slobbered on varnish. They're the toughest guns in the world to appraise if the builder was family. It's the nature of the business.
Pretty much the same goes for home-made boats and yard landscaping. There are more white painted tires and pink plastic flamingos than heirlooms and masterpieces.
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,123 Posts
Gun Parts corp has type 99 barrels for a less than a hundred bucks. Type 38, they are out.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/arisaka/type-99

I don't know if they are interchangeable as far as thread form, etc. Changing out the barrel would be a project in itself, with more money in tools, etc. 7.7 Arisaka may not be cheap if you can find it. Looks like around $2 a round is about the going rate from what searching I did. Couldn't find anyone selling .25-08 ammo (sometimes the small ammo makers load reasonably popular wildcats).

Cheapest route will probably be to sell what you have, recoup whatever amount of money you can, and then buy an Arisaka in reasonable shooting condition. I'm with Jack, a very pointed letter to the auction company pointing out that they committed fraud, might get a refund going. Just a thought.

Or your credit card company may support you in a dispute, if you can show that you did not receive what was advertised.


Best of luck.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,345 Posts
I'd still like to see a chamber cast. I'd just about bet it's a 6.5-Roberts in the military barrel. It would be very unusual to re-barrel a Jap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: broom_jm

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,123 Posts
Yeah, labor of love for sure. The uncommon thread pitch on the Arisaka would not be friendly to most lathes. Is the gun stamped with a cartridge marking on the barrel? Does is still have sights on the barrel, and if so, do they look like 'regular' iron sights, or original military?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,345 Posts
I think maybe a drive-by poster. One and done. I hope not.

Re-reading post #4, I wish I had a rifle. I'd send it to him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
The listing on the auction originally read "Japanese type 38 heavy barreled target rifle". It also had no item description.

After the auction ended the invoice they sent me read, "Japanese type 38 heavy barreled target rifle 25 super (25-08 cal)"

After I contacted the auction company they updated the auction listing to reflect the invoice. They also added the listing description (which was not there prior to the auction closing) which reads as follows.....

"If you like oddball, wildcat, heavy barrel target rifles, this one is right up your alley. A strong type 38 action fitted with a heavy commercial barrel. The barrel is full at the breach, tapering to just over 5/8 inch at the muzzle. The metal on the rifle is free of rust or pitting. It has been professionally hot blued, action, small parts and barrel. Mechanically it is in excellent condition and has an excellent sharply rifled barrel. The rifle is fitted with flecker style target style blocks. The original stock has been inletted to fit the new barrel contour and had a comb added to facilitate sighting with a scope. Not elegant but very effective. The rifle will likely shoot well. The last owner thought enough of it to mount a 10 Power Unertl Varmint Scope on it. The scope is listed in this auction as well as a separate lot."

This info would have been helpful prior to bidding, but the auction company has thoroughly covered up there error.

I might just keep the rifle as sentiment for the rifle is not in high demand. I will have to find someone in my area to help me with reloading as all the wonderful info provided by all of you so generously has me a little overwhelmed.
 
1 - 20 of 88 Posts
Top