Shooters Forum banner

21 - 40 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
If I remember correctly there was some question as to whether Ned Roberts did the work on the 257 Roberts also. What is it with these quarter bores and who developed them anyway. I would like to have been around during those heady days of cartridge development.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,948 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,341 Posts
The 30-06 case was in 1909-1925 the same as the .223 is today. How many cartridges are IMMEDIATELY wildcatted after adaptation of a US small arms round. The .308 might even be used as an example!

Nieder necked the 30-06 down with no other changes and came out with about 60 grains of 4831 capacity. Newton shortened the case but steepened the shoulder and came up with about 59/4831.
The Savage 99 action needed a certain length so it was shortened again (bypassing the later 25 Souper) to the 250 Savage.
Mann, Roberts, Lovell, Kilborn, Niedner and others were mostly NE woodchuck shooters. The 25 was THE small caliber because 6mm weren't 'invented' yet and there weren't any 'hunting .22 center-fires' yet.

The .243Win/6mm Rem. pretty much killed the small .25s until Bill Ruger brought back several nostalgic calibers.

The 250-3000 is a true 'short' cartridge but only Mauser Werkes made an action especially for it. The Kurtz Mauser was made especially for the caliber and was only made in that caliber.
Here's one for sale that was made by Neider!
NIEDNER RIFLE CORPARATION KURZ MAUSER ACTION 250-3000

And another one by Al Bieson in 250-3000 AI!
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/mauser-rifles-sporter-pre-war/biesen-250-3000-ackley-imp-kurz-short-action-mauser-exc-wood-made-1982-biesen-wrap-around-fleur-de-lis-checkering-ideal-for-youth-or-lady.cfm?gun_id=100869766
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jack

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
Ned Roberts

This is slightly OT. Roberts had details the development of the 25 Roberts in several articles in the AR. He included names of others involved in the development. There were several groups jointly working on the cartridge. If I recall correctly one group worked on developing a hunting round. The other worked with target rifles. Part of those experiments including working on ideal twist rates. Accuracy standards were high with groups being shown in the articles. Off the top of my head seems like Robert's loads were very much like today's +P. Roberts got support from Hercules and Remington. Remington chronographed loads. Roberts in more recent times was accused in print of exaggerating or inflating his accomplishments. Associates like Ken Waters stood up for him. I always wondered who the angel was with the money for these experiments. With age I have become more wordy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
So, bottom line is that a lot of people were working on 25-caliber wildcats, but it was Newton who collaborated with Savage to build the 250-3000 and bring it to market. Of course others were playing around with similar developments; that is always true, when it comes to cartridge development.

If the 250 Savage preceded the 300 Savage, which appears to be true, does anyone know how the 300 Savage came about? Also, does anyone know if the 270 Savage was ever a production item or was it strictly a wildcat?
 
  • Like
Reactions: StretchNM

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,948 Posts
The Hornady handbook has attributed the .250 Savage development to Newton. They have done so far enough back there should have been an outrage if it wasn't true.

The .250 came on the scene in 1915 and the .300 in 1921, also according to Hornady.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
Was I reading too much into that article to suspect that Donaldson claimed development because he had provided ideas, insight, and some data, but that it was Newton who actually brought it to its final stage as the true cartridge we know today?
the only thing Newton had to do with it is come up with the story that he developed it. It was the chief ballistic engineer at savage who did the case work and design work after Harvey asked him why they just didn't use a cartridge case with a smaller rim like the 30-06.

It's too bad that more people don't know the truth behind the idea of the great 250-3000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
So, bottom line is that a lot of people were working on 25-caliber wildcats, but it was Newton who collaborated with Savage to build the 250-3000 and bring it to market. Of course others were playing around with similar developments; that is always true, when it comes to cartridge development.

If the 250 Savage preceded the 300 Savage, which appears to be true, does anyone know how the 300 Savage came about? Also, does anyone know if the 270 Savage was ever a production item or was it strictly a wildcat?
no Newton did NOT collaborate with Savage. They utterly dismissed his case and cartridge suggestions. When he heard about their experiments, he called them up and said they would be stupid to not chamber it for a 100gr bullet, but Savage wanted the publicity of having a 3000fps deer cartridge.

Harvey Donaldson was friends with the chief ballistic engineer at Savage, and he lived only a few miles away. He was a frequent visitor in their lab and often had them run pressure and velocity data on what ever wildcat or cartridge he was working on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
I stand behind the Newton origins of the 250 Savage. One comment from Harvey Donaldson does not make documentation. Sorry.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,341 Posts
If Vernon Speer was telling the story and Joyce Hornady too and putting it in print along side Ackley and in the days of Hatcher the boss at the American Rifleman, if not then 'fact' at least it's 'common knowledge'.
Vanity cartridges are cool if they become factory fodder and classic, but usually by then the inventor is dead anyway. Ackley was NOT the preferred 'improved' cartridge until after the book was published.
Mashburn and Gibbs and ICL and others had it covered.

Invent a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door......(false) advertizing helps.

Not to change the subject, but I've always wanted a #1 in 219 Donaldson Wasp with a Lyman Super Targetspot for shooting nostalgic rock chucks. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: broom_jm

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
If the 250 Savage preceded the 300 Savage, which appears to be true, does anyone know how the 300 Savage came about? Also, does anyone know if the 270 Savage was ever a production item or was it strictly a wildcat?
Based on this American rifleman article https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/7/7/savage-model-99-a-look-back/ The 300 savage was created for doughboys returning from WWI that had used and liked the 30-06. The 300 Savage was designed to have similar ballistics to the 30-06, but made to fit the 99 rifle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
22 Newton

I was doing some research on the 250 Savage and 256 Newton. It would appear that Charles Newton was also working on a 22 caliber cartridge other than the High-Power. This experiment was carried on after the introduction of the High-Power. That wildcat cartridge used a shortened 30-06 (7mm Mauser?) case with .228 bullets. Where I'm going with this is that Newton was working on several cartridges; 22 Newton, 256 Newton and 250 Savage at the same time. He had to also be working on the 300 Newton family during the same time. He was busy. It's hard to swallow that Newton, in the middle of all this, was pushing a cartridge that would have required a redesign of the entire Savage rifle. I am of the same mind as Jack on references and documentation. The only reference I could find to the Harvey Donaldson story on the net and has already been shared by opus. I'll go with collaborations sometimes but this one looks like it was Charles Newton's baby.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,341 Posts
The Newton line was mostly designed around his action design. He was the original 'Dakota Arms'.
GREAT rifles, by the way. The Instructional supervisor at CST was a Newton collector. He had every caliber Newton rifle with factory ammo and some prototype blue-prints of ideas that never got done. (I wonder what happened to the Ben Spahnn collection?)

You see a lot of Newton action in the Model 77 Ruger, the most notable being the 'draw-back' front tang screw.

Here's one to slobber over. Check out the Rigby style peep sight!
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/newton-rifles/newton-arms-co-pre-war-model-1916-mauser-action-rifle.cfm?gun_id=100953416
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jack

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
270 Savage

Information on the 270 Savage can be found in P.O Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" pp376. Looks like this wildcat may have been a case of parallel development. Small numbers of custom rifles were turned out by individual gunsmiths. In Ackley there was no indication that the 270 Savage was a factory round. Chuck Hawks spoke of a 270 AI Savage. Looks like the 270 Savage is a useful wildcat that has dropped by the wayside. In 1915 there were no 270 anythings. One source remarked that the only other 270 was a Chinese contract Mauser prior to the introduction of the 270 by Winchester. Bet that would be a nice one to unravel. Everybody stay safe.

Let's see if Jack will do a little piece on the Blake Rifle. That rifle was otherworldly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
no Newton did NOT collaborate with Savage. They utterly dismissed his case and cartridge suggestions. When he heard about their experiments, he called them up and said they would be stupid to not chamber it for a 100gr bullet, but Savage wanted the publicity of having a 3000fps deer cartridge.

Harvey Donaldson was friends with the chief ballistic engineer at Savage, and he lived only a few miles away. He was a frequent visitor in their lab and often had them run pressure and velocity data on what ever wildcat or cartridge he was working on.
That's a pretty strong opinion, Dan. Every reloading book I've ever read, along with COTW and numerous other sources, credit Newton with having a significant role in creating the 250-3000 Savage. The fact that ol' Harv suggested to all parties concerned that they use a .473" head size does not make him the inventor of the round and one article alluding to his role, if any, isn't going to change history.

All of those guys played around with a wide variety of wildcat cartridge configurations. Look at the huge list of cartridges created by both Gary Reeder and JD Jones. Charles Newton was a man well head of his time; if the powders of that day had been slow burning enough, his cartridges would have been some of the best designs ever created. To this day, you can't really make a 30-caliber round that is "better" than a 30 Newton.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,648 Posts
Modern Powders?

Do a survey of 256 Newton loads from the old time Speer manual that Jbelk provided for us. Compare that with the current generation of 6.5/260 cartridges. Speer loads may be bit heavy. The 1/14 twist in the 250 was an abomination. The ad guys ran things then....as now.:mad:

Headsize: I am being redundant. Look at what else Newton was working on at the same time as the 250. He already had, as other experimenters, moved on the 06 head size. Any claim that Donaldson came up with this does not hold any water. Other than Donaldson's own words where is anything like supporting documentation? Showing may age..."Where's the beef?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
That's a pretty strong opinion, Dan. Every reloading book I've ever read, along with COTW and numerous other sources, credit Newton with having a significant role in creating the 250-3000 Savage. The fact that ol' Harv suggested to all parties concerned that they use a .473" head size does not make him the inventor of the round and one article alluding to his role, if any, isn't going to change history.

All of those guys played around with a wide variety of wildcat cartridge configurations. Look at the huge list of cartridges created by both Gary Reeder and JD Jones. Charles Newton was a man well head of his time; if the powders of that day had been slow burning enough, his cartridges would have been some of the best designs ever created. To this day, you can't really make a 30-caliber round that is "better" than a 30 Newton.

I didn't say Donaldson invented 250-3000. I said he suggested a 30-06 sized rim to solve the problem SAVAGE was having with it. I said Mr. Pierce [ the ballistic engineer] at Savage invented it.

Newton was a shameless self-promoter and never missed an opportunity to pat himself on the back and blow his own horn. Even when he didn't have a horn to blow.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,341 Posts
dmsbandit--- Are you by any chance confused Charlie Newton with James V. Howe? Newton invented many firearms related innovations, designed a great rifle and owned a manufacturing company. Howe (Griffin and Howe) was a 'shameless promoter that blew his horn even though he had no horn to blow' according to several articles and statements made by contemporaries. He was said to 'work just long enough to get his name on the door'. I've never heard that about Newton but has been said for decades about Howe.

In my opinion, Newton was not promoter enough. His rifles are much nicer that the M-30 and M-54s they competed with and better than the later to come M-70.

The 7x57 is as likely the parent of the 250-3000 than the 30-06, but I'm sure the specifications for manufacture came from the 30-06 specs and tooling.
Just consider the choices of parent case in 1912. Which rimless cases were there to choose from? The Remington series 25, 30, 32 and 35 and the Winchester Self Loaders and the Lee Navy and the 7x57 and the 30-06. Why turn off rims when there's already a case made as a parent? It only makes sense.
 
21 - 40 of 99 Posts
Top