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Early Reference to Newton and 25-3000

In the 24 Hour Campfire Website: In Savage Collectors portion a source is shown dated from the early 1920's. There, Charles Newton noted the designer of the 250-3000. The rifle shown is the bolt action Savage 1920. Crediting others than Charles Newton for the 250-3000 is dubious on the best day. Be safe.
 

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In the 24 Hour Campfire Website: In Savage Collectors portion a source is shown dated from the early 1920's. There, Charles Newton noted the designer of the 250-3000. The rifle shown is the bolt action Savage 1920. Crediting others than Charles Newton for the 250-3000 is dubious on the best day. Be safe.

repeating a myth or lie doesn't make it the truth.
 

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A myth or lie is seldom recorded when all the participants are alive, friends, do similar work and publish findings in national publications, either.
Changing history recorded at the time is very difficult but opinions change with new facts. I haven't seen any new facts to suggest the written history is wrong. Is there evidence to see or just feelings?

Newton had already designed the 22 Hi-Power which was put in the Model 99 in 1912. Why wouldn't he suggest a .25 caliber on that or another rimmed case? That Savage decided to go rimless instead means very little. Newton was designing a .25 caliber Savage for the Model 99. Bolt face diameter and length of magazine are the first two design parameters to decide.
 

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Where's the Beef!!!!

Where's the Beef: Where is the evidence to establish that Newton's contribution was a myth?
 
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Well?

Well, where's the evidence that Harvey Donaldson designed the 250 Savage?
I'm on the edge of my chair waiting to be enlightened.
 
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Well, where's the evidence that Harvey Donaldson designed the 250 Savage?
I'm on the edge of my chair waiting to be enlightened.
i already told you the history.

i also said he didn't invent it, but offered the chief ballistic engineer at Savage, who was Donaldson's friend, input and advice on a problem. It was the ballistic engineer with input from Donaldson that designed the case.

newton's only credit would be to give Savage the idea of a 25 caliber cartridge for their gun. His bullet weight, case length, case design, and everything else related to the 250-3000 was flatly REJECTED by the guy doing the work at Savage.
 

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Dmsbandit, I'm following this thread out of curiosity and interest only. I have no information other than what's here. You are sure sticking to your point, but it would be good to see some paper on that. What was supplied earlier doesn't fully support the argument.

I will say this though, through direct experience. Contemporaneous writings always take more evidence to refute, and even more the longer the time that passes. And that's especially true with contemporaneous notes. They carry a lot of weight in legal settings, and should also in historical settings. Whatever you have, find a way to post it so we can read it please.
 

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"History" is hard to change without compelling evidence. We don't have living witnesses to give testimony so what was written and 'peer reviewed' in the public press of the time will have to stand.

I can well imagine three guys standing around talking new calibers--- Newton suggest a 'Savage 25-35' and Savage says 'no, let's use the 30-06 case instead'. Donaldson's buddy says that means Newton didn't design it because the first idea was shot down?-

The argument is not compelling.

Note the headspace datum dimension is 'odd' in the Savage rimless calibers and neither follow the 30-06 'standard' .375 datum. The 25-300 is .347 and the 300 Sav is .3968. Remington kept the .347 datum for the 22-250 making it unique in the Remington calibers.
Some trivia is TRULY trivial! ;)
 

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Well? Looks like more of the same...

Usually doing historical research those sources closest to the happening carry much horsepower. Sources nearly one hundred years old have been provided elsewhere. We have shown sources only seventy five years old crediting Newton. The fact remains that the 250 Savage bears a strong resemblance to the 256 Newton and the 22 Newton. This 30-40 based twenty-five caliber cartridge is not fiction. It is called the 25 Krag....but not by Newton. Look at Newton's long history in firearms field. Look at what Newton was doing at the time of the introduction of the 250-3000. This Donaldson story comes from none other than Donaldson himself. :eek::eek: This thing sounds like a story shared over friendly beers. Repeated over time the story has a life of its own. How about showing us a picture of the Newton designed 25 Krag. One reference cites experiments with a 25 Krag were being done as early as 1906. Niedner and Mann are credited with much work in this cartridge. I, in a quick search was unable to find any reference of Newton's involvement with such a wildcat. Let's agree to disagree peacefully. Life is too short. Be safe.
 

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The 300 Savage definitely came first and was not derived from any other cartridge. It was an original development meant to compete for a role with the US military.
I have both, I used the .300 when I still hunted deer & elk, I still use the .250 for p'dogs & 'yotes. I do recommend the 99 Savage's. They've never let me down!!
DickC (gatguy)
 

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It seems like some of the posters think that the 256 Newton is a 25 caliber and its not....its a .264.
Right you are! About 35 years ago I bought a Shilen SS Select Match barrel that had been chambered in 256 Newton and threaded for a Ruger No. 1. It came with a couple of boxes of brass, some of which are original and bear the 256 Newt. headstamp. I had my GS rechamber it to 6.5-06 for ease of component and die acquisition.
The photo with the cases standing show a 6.5-06 on the left for comparison the the 256 Newton.
 

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Best of all the 22-250 resulted from all the Hooplah
Yeah, lots of BS in the beginning of this 2-year-old thread. The .22-250 is a great round (I shoot it in my Ruger No. 1) and if pressures are kept at the original .250-3000 SAAMI level it is marginally safe in the Contender. Case head thrust is the limiting factor here, not just psi. I’ve been shooting my .300 Savage (developed after the .250-3000) Contender for over 35 years and I keep my loads a couple grains below the manual maximums. Easy extraction and no frame damage (I stretched a frame years ago and know what that means).


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Cutting thru the rumor mill, The first caliber was the 1895 model 95 in the 250-3000, 1895 to 1920..Then the Hammerles Sporting Rifle, also during the same time period and was off and on until the 99E showed up again in 1924 and cranking up 3000 fps with an 87 gr. bullet...

the first 300 Savage was a 99A that came about in 1923 to 1938, and hung around until until hades froze over, well almost..unless you claim that clip model as legit, up to you...I don't..
 

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When my son got old enough to hunt deer for his first rifle I bought him a Savage99 in 300 savage made in 1934. That was 24 years ago and he still has it and has killed a truck load of deer and hogs with it.
 

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Mr. Newton invented it from whole cloth.
From an 06 case that was stretched from a 8x57 from the late 1800. All the same case head some stretched, some shortened.

Newton had his name on the design, but many others doing the same thing - wildcating in the early 1900s
 

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Cutting thru the rumor mill, The first caliber was the 1895 model 95 in the 250-3000, 1895 to 1920..Then the Hammerles Sporting Rifle, also during the same time period and was off and on until the 99E showed up again in 1924 and cranking up 3000 fps with an 87 gr. bullet...

the first 300 Savage was a 99A that came about in 1923 to 1938, and hung around until until hades froze over, well almost..unless you claim that clip model as legit, up to you...I don't..
I may be wrong but I believe the 1895 was chambered for the savage 303 caliber not the 250-3000.
 
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