[Bartmasterson3]

Does anyone know anything about this wildcat and it's ballistics relative to the standard 270 Win?  Are there any good references on this particular round that anyone can recommend?  Also, who's a recommended gunsmith to perform this rechamber?  Is it one that a hobbiest could do themselves?

BMasterson

 

[Contender]

Bart,

Below is the e-mail addy to one Mike Bellm. He was PO Ackley's son-in-law and I believe he has ALL his old chamber reamers. He currently does work on T/C Contenders now but I'm pretty sure he could help you with info on this cartridge and 'smithing. He is honest and straight to the point and won't steer ya wrong. Tell him Ray K sent ya.

[email protected]



Regards







(Edited by Contender at 12<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->3 pm on Dec. 8, 2001)

 

[Bill Lester]

Everything I have read about .30-06 based cartridges with the Ackley Improved variation indicates a consistent 2-3% increase in velocities. Figure less than 100 fps with 130-grain loads.

 

[Bartmasterson3]

Well, I have corresponded with Mike (thanks Contender) and now I want this conversion even more than ever.  Note that he doesn't to this kind of work anymore so I'm sure he'd prefer not to be deluged with requests for a conversion.  However, he mentioned doing some conversions on Ruger 1-Bs a few years back that produced results like 32-3300 fps for 150 gr and 33-3400 for 130 gr bullets.  He points out a caveat ... don't try this on a 22 inch barrel.  Bill Lester pointed out in the last post that you could only expect a 100 fps increase.  I suppose that the reports he heard were from people trying this on 22 inch barrels.  Mike says that 24 or 26 inch barrels are required to squeeze out the performance and to use only the slowest burning powders.  He also said that he believed this to be one of the best all around cartridges.  His comparisons were mostly to the 7mm Rem Mag, although I can tell he has no use for that round.

I for one will be checking this out, and plan to start checking the used market for Ruger 1-Bs, or other long barreled rifles in 270 Win.  The conversion, as done by a good gunsmith, doesn't appear to be too expensive, although the numbers Mike gave were for "a few years ago".  If you are serious enough to call a gunsmith to set this up email me and I'll give you the name of the gunsmith Mike recommended.

Bob

 

[Bill Lester]

Bob,

Keep in mind that the majority of velocity increase will be from the added barrel length associated with the No. 1B, not the modification. Comparing that 26" tube with the common 22" guns nets an increase of 120-200 fps with nothing done to the weapon. So you're looking at an optimum increase of 150-200 fps for the Ackley chamber.

 

[redleg155]

You might want to check out <a href="http://www.accuratereloading.com

There," target="_blank">http://www.accuratereloading.com

There,</a> Saeed from UAE, has done extensive work with the 270 AI and has reloading data for it also.

It's another good site on the net besides.

-redleg

 

[Bill Lester]

Redleg,

I just went to the website you mentioned and was surprised by the lack of improvement, considering the 25" barrel. I suppose this goes to show just how efficient the standard .270 Winchester really is compared to the Ackley.

 

[Bartmasterson3]

I agree.  The performance, based on the data given, isn't exactly stellar.  Given that only a long barrel (ie longer than my 22" barrel) would produce any respectable improvement I can't see spending the cash on this conversion.  Now if a bargain on a Ruger 1-B in 270 Win comes along I might change my mind.  In the meantime I think I'll shelf this idea.

 

[Bill Lester]

Bart,

If you'd like, send me your e-mail using the Messenger feature and I'll let you know if one comes up around here. I hit a lot of gun shows and would be happy to let you know of a dealer with a used No. 1 .270. There aren't many used No. 1's in my experience but they do pop up now and then.

 

[James Gates]

Page 382...Vol 1, Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders...Parker O. Ackley...."Since the original .270 is over bore capacity, little improvement can be expected although some shooterssay it is a fair cartridge for bullets heavier than 150gr. Due to its relative inefficieny, it is not recommended. The standard .270 in ub=naltered form should be better, there fore no loading data is given"
Ther is, and has been, a great deal of misunderstaning on the part of the shooters as to way Parker developed his "Improved" versions. Simple...More space to burn slow powders under heavy bullets. If one takes the time to read what Parker was saying it becomes obvious. The same applies to the Magnum rounds like .300 Win Mag, etc....and yet shooters still want to push low weight bullets in them.
Best regards, James

 

[Bartmasterson3]

I don't own the book and so haven't had the opportunity to read that before (although I was prepared to bid on it at eBay the other day until someone "Bought it Now" at the high price...oh well).  Anyway, I won't quote Mr Bellm without his permission, but he seems to have other thoughts.  Perhaps the man (PO) and his son-in-law didn't see eye-to-eye on some things.

I've always thought that the 270 Win was border line overbore and would believe that the Improved version would just be more of the same.  But there are plenty of other cartridges out there that are overbore capacity also.  For example, if the 270 Win is then the 25-06 must be too.  The latter has developed a reputation, be it real or imagined, for burning out barrels rapidly.  If one is willing to put up with short barrel life for a few more fps then more power to them.  For most of us the cost must be justified by the result.  And justification is often done more with a subjective measure than anything, especially in this hobby.  If someone has the idea that it's worth &#36500 to gain 100 fps then maybe it is...to them.

Thanks for the insights that you all gave.  As I said, I plan to postpone this project indefinitely; until I can justify it in my own mind (and pocket book).

 

[GilaMonster]

OK, it's interesting to see people's "oppinions" about the performance of improved cartridges. Everyone is quick to make their guess as to the performance advantages. I use several rifles that are chambered for various Ackley Improved cartridges on a regular basis. First, it must be mentioned that with the great variety of new, slow burning powders available to us now, the data previousely published isn't an accurate account of the capabilities of the improved cases. This is especcially true of the "over bore capacity cartridges". One of my favorite of the Acklye Imp. cartridges is the 25-06 Ack. Imp.. Prior to rechambering to the imp. version my max. velocity was 3120 fps with the fine 115 Nosler. bullet-now I have no problem achieving 3500 fps with the imp. version. Yes, that's right almost 400fps difference. Is it worth the rechambering? You bet it is! I am waiting for a 270 Ackley reamer from Clymer, as we speak. With my previous experience with the imp. versions, I believe that at least 300 fps. advantage will be achieved with IMR 7828, when using the 150g bullet. In my experience, the most advantage is experienced with bullets of the heavier weights for the given caliber. Hope this helps.

(Edited by GilaMonster at 2:13 pm on July 22, 2001)

 

[Bill Lester]

The question begs to be asked- How do your other Ackley-chambered rifles perform compared to the smokin' .25-06/115 load you mentioned? What cartridges and barrel lengths are they?

 

[GilaMonster]

I have had similar results with the 6.5mm-o6 Ack. Imp. From a Mauser 98 with a 24in bbl. Also using IMR7828. I like the 139 and 140 projectiles in this cartridge. I can achieve 3240 with this bullet. I don't like the heavier bullets in this cartridge because I feel that the heavier bullets should be left to larger caliber cartridges. I've tried the 125g Nosler Partition and get within 75 FPS of the 25-06 Ack Imp. The problem exists that with the rate of twist of my bbl., and the high velocity of the 125, it doesn't stabelize very well. Accuracy is what I consider unacceptable. I am quite picky about what I expect from a rifle. If it doesn't shoot well under 1 MOA, I rechamber or rebarrel it, or try different load combinations. I haven't worked with any of the smaller Imp. cases such as the 308, I like working with the 06 cases. I am still waiting for the 270 Imp. reamer from Clymer. They promised it within two weeks. I also have an old krag jorgensen rifle chambered for the 30-40 Imp. This little number will shoot neck and neck with a 30-06. This is not news because the slower propelants will not work in this cartridge and it isn't over bore, just mentioned that it worked.

 

[jackfish]

On GilaMonter's web site it is stated that the 25-06 AI has 8% more case capacity than the standard 25-06 yet achieves nearly a 10% increase in velocity.  How then does he easily get 3500 fps when his standard load was 3120 fps?  I have a 280 Rem AI and know with prudent loading practices one can get not much more than 150 fps over the standard cartridge.  It sounds to me like GilaMonster is ignoring heavy extraction and loose primer pockets.  Either that or the whopper just keeps growing, first it was 300 fps now its 400 fps.  I also find the claim of 3240 fps with 140 grain bullets in a 6.5-06 AI in a 24" barrel highly suspect.  Just my impression.

 

[alyeska338]

Bart,
Sounds like you are in the market for something a little different and not standard, and this may have no bearing on the subject whatsoever, but...

Sounds like you want a hot 270 in a Ruger No.1 B.  Ruger chambers the No. 1 B in 270 Weatherby Magnum.  Ballistics should be every bit as good if not better than the AI.  I had one of these rifles years ago.  It was a shooter.  I used 140gr bullets and it was a very destructive combo for deer, coyotes and wolves.  I'm not sure about the expense of the conversion to AI, but if you go with the Wby Mag, you get for the price of the No. 1B, no conversion necessary.

While at a purely practical standpoint, these improved cartridges probably don't offer alot more performance over their standard cousins, given the small caliber size, dead is dead right?  What I noticed with the Wby was a lot more bloodshot meat (guess I should've used 150's) and huge holes in animals compared to the Winchester flavor.  The problem with suping up something in a sub 30 caliber for big game hunting is that you are still limited to what you want to hunt with one.  I'm sure the 270 Wby will take Elk and Moose as will the 270 Winchester, however, I'd feel much better using a 30 caliber or better.  So will the 270 Wby take a whitetail deer better than a 270 Win?  I guess it depends on your definition of better, but I don't think the deer will know the difference.  That much extra velocity equals more hydrostatic shock and more bloodshot meat.  270 Win has a trajectory that is flat enough and will take deer as far as practicable, so I don't really think there is really an advantage.  However, if you look at the reason you use a 270 Win, its because you want a flat trajectory and warranted killing power for the animals hunted at long range right?  If that is the case, then faster should be better.  If 3000 fps is good, shouldn't 3300 fps be better?  I don't know.  I do know that I now hunt with a 7x57 Mauser, instead of a 7mm Magnum for up to Caribou sized game and prefer to get within sane shooting distance and make hunting skills a large part of hunting and not rely on just shooting skills.

 

[Reloder28]

I own a 270 Improved in a 15" barreled Encore pistol. 130 gr bullets exit the muzzle over 2950 fps. That is not as fast as it is capable of, I have had it up to 3050 but the recoil was offensive. When it was a 270 Winchester, 2750 was the best it would do. I don't know what this round would be capable of in a 22"+ barrel but judging the result of the short barrel I shoot, I think the invested time and effort was well worth the result.

 

[rem40xb1]

I have a 270 AI in a 19" barrel XP100 that shoots 130 bergers 3011 with 62.0 of H4831 Ross

 

[old roper]

I did the 30-06AI off the Nolser 280AI case just trying to save on fired forming. I had purchased a Rem ADL 30-06 with a 24" barrel Hodgdon site had a max load for the 165 gr bullet with 60gr/IMR-4350 @ 2930fps. worked up to that load got 2940fps. After the new barrel was installed I used that same load in the 30-06AI @ 3074fps when up 2grs to 3148fps.
Hodgdon had another load max at 59gr/H-4350 165gr bullet @ 2938fps I started with that load got 2934fps got to a max of 62gr/H-4350 @ 3191fps.

Build a 30-06 with 25" barlein barrel with 60gr/IMR-4350 165gr bullet @ 3066fps, 58gr/IMR-4350 was 2962fps.

The 1 to 3 gr increase and velocity gain for that 30-06AI was good but when you compare it against the Bartlein barrel it doesn't look at that great. I build that rifle after the 30-06AI learned some off that rifle that I could change some things barrel length,twist amount of groove and come up with a faster 30-06. I changed things on another 30-06 I had build and came up with 3105fps with 165gr bullet.

For me it's in the barrel my 280AI has a 25" Kreiger the barrel today are great. I think a 270AI would be a nice rifle to build. Well good luck

 

[iiranger]

Mr. Ackley also wrote...

there are rifles that for explainable reason produce velocities of 100? 200? or more feet per second than can be produced by "ordinary" rifles... Some legends have been built on such guns. Persons hoping to achieve similar results... Back then there were not that many chronographs around...

He said that he did not feel the belt was "right" for anything under .30. He also agreed with the "one born every minute" thinking.

.270 can, no doubt" be "heated up" cf. .270 Weatherby, but at a cost in barrel life and powder expense. Mr. A was a trained engineer and sought some "reason" in his work. Improving a "funnel" like the .250 Savage or .30/40 Krag or ??? Now cases with reasonably straight sides to begin... less to be gained. HAPPY NEW YEAR. Luck.