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30/30 action, 357Max cartridge?

8K views 39 replies 16 participants last post by  crossfire 
#1 ·
Guys,

If I bought a '94 or knock-off in 30/30, would the magazine/action be able to handle the shorter 357Max cartridge? Before buying the gun and replacement barrel, I just want to make sure the action wouldn't jam up all the time because of the shorter, smaller diameter cartridge.
 
#2 ·
I won't pretend to know whether the cartridge would work through the 336 action or not. But I will say that I wouldn't bother with a conversion to that cartridge when I could just go out and find one in .35 Remington and know without a doubt that it would work just fine.
 
#3 ·
I agree with you completely, but the 35 Remington is not legal for hunting deer, where I live. If it were, I would probably have a variety of other cartridges that I would prefer even more, but I'm stuck with "pistol-chambered rifles". The 357Max is one of the best (easy) options out there. If it will work through a Model '94 that was originally chambered for 30/30, I will start looking to buy one.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The .357 Herrett has a 1.75" case length. Instead of the .357 Maximum or .357 Herrett, I'd suggest the .375 SuperMag. It is the .375 Winchester shortened to 1.605" and can also be made from the .30-30 (with more work). It should feed thru the '94 action with no problems, easily has power equal to a .44 Magnum with a flatter trajectory and is well-respected for inherent accuracy among silhouette shooters.
 
#12 ·
Actually, Indiana is one of the PCR (pistol-chambered rifle) states that does NOT specify a straight-walled case. (Thus the 358GNR wildcat I've been working with, which is a 445SM, necked down.) I believe Michigan does require a straight-walled pistol case be used, but in Indiana the restrictions are simply that the case be no longer than 1.625" and shoot a bullet no smaller than .357".

The .357 Herrett is a very good option, but to be legal, I would have to get a custom reamer made, (and possibly dies?) because I need it to be .125" shorter than the standard specification. With the 357Max, you just use the standard reamer and existing 38Special or 357Mag dies. That's why I was wondering, from a gunsmith's perspective, if the smaller diameter, shorter COL 357Max would run through the magazine/action of a Model 94 originally chambered in 30/30.
 
#13 · (Edited)
You don't need custom dies and reamers for what you are looking for. Simply use .357 SIG components. A .357 SIG lengthened .750" with a rim can be formed from .375/.38-55 Win brass to give you a 1.615" case. You can use .357 Herrett data for this cartridge as the shoulder will be approx. .030" further forward and .020" larger in diameter than the Herrett.
 
#14 ·
OK, I "think" you're saying I could use a .357 SIG sizing die and .375 brass, cut to length, and formed into a case that is nearly twice as long as the dies are made to size cartridges for. While I'm not convinced that would work, I kinda get the idea. Where I am REALLY confused is how this negates the need for a custom reamer? How would I get a chamber cut for such a cartridge (which isn't an altogether bad idea, so far...)?
 
#15 ·
Why don't you trim the .357 Herrett brass to the right (Indiana-legal) length, shoot it in the standard chamber, and be done with it? Is is a restriction on the chamber, or ammo?

If they aren't going to stick case gages in the chamber.... then wouldn't that fix the issue, within the rules? Just a thought.
 
#16 ·
Mike, that's a very good question!

I have thought the same thing, but worry that the restriction may be on the actual CHAMBER size, not the case. It would probably never come into question, but if it did, the fact that I "could" chamber a full-length .357 Herrett case might get me into trouble. I guess you could say I'm avoiding even the very appearance of evil...or, just being a chicken, but I value my hunting rights a great deal and would hate to have them rescinded on such a minor technicality.

I suppose I could be safe, talk to a DNR officer, get a written statement of what is, and what is not, legal. If I had it in writing, the 357 Herrett would be a really good choice. I want to stay within the letter of the law, even if I question the intent? :)

Still, the 357Max is easier, all the way around, because the case is certainly short enough, they require no fire-forming chores, plus they're very affordable and available. The Max doesn't give as much velocity as the Herrett, but it has better range and trajectory than a standard 44Mag, while creating much less recoil than the 12" slug guns that most deer hunters use, in Indiana.

Is the consensus that a 357 Herrett, shortened to 1.625" (and with bullets loaded long?) would cycle reliably through an unaltered Model '94 action, originally cut for a 30/30? If so, I think I need to revisit that idea more seriously.
 
#17 · (Edited)
You could just go with my favorite .35, and buy a 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag., and a .357 Mag barrel. re-chamberthe .357 barrel to .357/44 Bain and Davis. Re-place the .44 barrel with the re-chambered 357 barrel. Shortening the mag tube and reshaping the front barrel band will also be necessary. The ballistics are very close to the .35 Remington.

Makes a nice fast handlin, light weight carbine for deer up to Muley's.

(Note:) Grandson just talked me out of mine, so I guess I will have to buld another one.
 
#28 ·
You could just go with my favorite .35, and buy a 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag., and a .357 Mag barrel. re-chamberthe .357 barrel to .357/44 Bain and Davis. Re-place the .44 barrel with the re-chambered 357 barrel. Shortening the mag tube and reshaping the front barrel band will also be necessary. The ballistics are very close to the .35 Remington.

Makes a nice fast handlin, light weight carbine for deer up to Muley's.

(Note:) Grandson just talked me out of mine, so I guess I will have to buld another one.[/QUOTE

+1 on this. It would be the easiest way to get the power you want. B&D can build the rifle for you.
 
#19 ·
Eric,

Thanks a lot for that link...there are quite a few interesting cartridges listed on that page. Several were wildcats I had wondered about and proof positive that if you can dream it up, someone's probably done it! :)

Jason
 
#22 ·
Rifles with the 30-30 bolt face are quite common and would make for a good base. For simplicity I would opt for the .375SM and Marlin action. Its a simple modification to put a stop on the lifter for proper feeding of the shorter cartridge.

A Marlin .35 Rem likely would work as its bolt face is only .020" larger than would be the rim on the 357Max. Changing the barrel and modifying the lifter should do it. If the magazine tube was too large inside, brass shim stock could be formed around a dowel and inserted as a sleeve, so no external modification would be necessary.

Win 94s have been described as ''a symphony of cams and levers" which means too many moving parts, IMO.
 
#23 ·
Another alternative is just to buy a 357mag levergun and shoot Buffalo Bore Heavy 180grn Hardcast ammo. From their test 18.5" Marlin levergun they achieved 1,851fps. Their 158grn Jacketed reached 2,153fps. Not as much fun as making a custom rifle but guaranteed to be legal.
 
#25 ·
Swany, you make that sound too easy! :)

I would need a gunsmith to do all of the above; I'm great with wood, but have done zero metal work. It doesn't sound like it would be a terribly difficult job and should work pretty well?
 
#26 ·
You don't need a custom reamer or dies to do the 1.625" Herrett. Your gunsmith can just run the reamer in .125" short and cut .125" off the sizing die. The amount of case taper in a Herrett over .125" is only .001-.002" and 30-30 brass or whatever you form them from is usually .005" or so smaller at the base than what a std Herrett reamer would cut anyway so you don't have to worry about sizing the brass too much at the base. A model 94 (or 336) does not actually have the case rim cut into the barrel (the rim just rests flat on the end of the barrel), so you also don't have to worry about the reamer not cutting the case rim counterbore when you run it in short. If I were doing the work on this project, I would do the short Herrett (especially since I have 2 sets of Herrett dies and a Herrett reamer in my shop :)). Shortening a sizing die .125" is about a 15 minute job vs modifying lifters and extractors for the 357 Max is time consuming and would take some trial and error unless the person doing the work was familiar with such a conversion. By the way, I tried to cycle a std length Herrett in my M94 32-40 and it didn't work - it got stuck when the lifter tried to raise it into position. I tried the same thing in my Marlin 336 38-55 and it cycled and fed fine. Sounds like a fun project.
 
#29 ·
broom_jm ,

I got your PM and sent you a longwinded reply on ways to get the short Herrett to work with modified factory barrels or a new replacement barrel. Your original post mentioned a replacement barrel, so I didn't assume you were looking for necessarily the easiest way to go. I agree the 357/44 Bain and Davis route mentioned above would work well too.
 
#34 ·
Broom_Jm
I've never been to this forum before, but saw your posting ... and had to make some comments.

First, you might try the Indiana Gun Owners Forum. Indiana hunters who are much more in tune to your plight finding Indiana Deer Legal cartridges that work.

Second, I don't know where you've been thinking these laws have been in place since the 50's? The carbine law just opened centerfire rifles a couple years ago. The law is VERY simple to understand ... basically the lawmakers wanted to make carbines legal in standard pistol cartridges. It's simple to understand:

1. Minimum Case Length = 1.16"
2. Maximum Case Length = 1.625"
3. Minimum Bullet Diameter = .357"

While it's an odd approach to writing the law, they actually accomplished what they wanted very well. Virtually all Pistol cartridges are eligible (.460S&W isn't) ... and virtually NO factory rifle cartridges are eligible. I think the SuperMag revolver chambers are probably the reason the max length actually went to 1.625".

I used a 357Max this year in a TC Carbine, and it is devastating on deer. Remember, deer are very think skinned. We're not killing grizzly in Indiana. From my contender, I can easily do 2100fps with a 180g bullet.

I too have been toying with some wildcat ideas, but don't know if I'll follow through this year. The Max in the TC really is nice!

Different than your approach, but I've been looking at a Savage Short Action. I've got a set of Herrett dies sitting on the shelf. The Herrett cases can be formed from rimless 6.8SPC brass, and feed through a repeater (bolt or auto).

My thoughts are not to run the reamer short, but to cut all the length from the neck. Not nearly as much neck length as would be ideal, but still ~.25" of neck length. Couple options are to ream a chamber out to full length, and just use short cases, seat the bullet out ... Or, I've been looking at OTTLLC that does a lot of Encore barrels. He uses an EDM instead of a reamer, and can cut whatever chamber you want.

Anyhow, lots of stuff here. Check out Indiana Gun Owner's forum, where the guy building the BFG cartridges is around quite often. Keep in mind you're not killing an elephant, so I find the .358WSSM overkill.

My primary reason for stepping away from the Max is follow up shots. An 1.62" straight wall cartridge isn't impossible to extract, but can be difficult when hunting.

Take care, Neal
 
#35 ·
Neal,

Welcome to ShootersForum and thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience on the Indiana deer rifle restrictions!

I'm painfully aware of the Indiana regs and already own a very good wildcat that is within their guidelines; a 358GNR, which is a 445SM case, necked down. It shoots that same 180gr SSP to around 2300fps, with a 22" barreled H&R handi-rifle. Quite accurate and certainly good out to 200 yards, without the recoil of a slug-gun or the mess of a ML. It is more work and expense than the 357 Max, but it also gives a small improvement in performance, as well.

I am a member of Indiana Gun Owners but I found their threads to be full of profanity, insults and rants of all kinds. I greatly prefer the Christian-based moderation we have on ShootersForum. Stick around for a while, read some older threads, and see if you don't agree. :)

I'm not big on the 35 WSSM variants, either...but if someone wants a 250+ deer rifle that is Indiana-legal, it's just about the only game in town. The 375 Whisper is probably a close second and the 460 S&W "short" would also be a real thumper...at both ends!

For the record, the regulations that have been around since the 1950's are the original shotgun/muzzle-loader regs that were only recently amended to allow for the use of Pistol Chambered Rifles. The short range regulations set way back when were to limit harvest and some believe that the PCR changes were made to help increase the harvest, as the herd is getting bigger than certain farmers and insurance agents would prefer. :D

I don't say this to sound like bragging, but I probably know as much about the various options available to meet our 1-5/8" regulations as just about anyone. This thread is about a 357 Herrett-short, something that could be made to work through a lever-action gun, but I've investigated many other options and researched the topic extensively. Wildcats and handloading for them is one of my passions in life, so even though I may grumble about the Indiana laws regarding rifles used to hunt deer, in a way this is a great outlet for my pursuit of wildcat cartridges.

Thanks again for your insights and I look forward to seeing your posts around for Forum!

Jason
 
#36 ·
I know the GNR's out there ... but I'm curious about the cost you have involved? I've never priced them, but have always hear $$.

How much Gary Reeder charge for his reloading dies? I've never priced them, but have have $15/set into RCBS NIB Max & Herrett dies.

Also, isn't the GNR the only one that will chamber his barrel's?

One of the nice things about the Herrett (or the .460) is that they are 50ksi cartridges ... that the 445SM is not. Brass is uber-expensive (I've bought it before), when available.

Anyhow ... here's a few things you might not have seen before. Midway sells .358 Shilen (non turned) 28" for $130. OTT will chamber a barrel for $125 to any dimensions, and doesn't require a custom reamer (I still want to contact him, but he has an excellent reputation with Encore barrels). 6.8SPC makes excellent rimless Herrett cartridges ... although in a lever gun, I'd think a 30-30 receiver/bolt would be ideal, and use the typical 30-30 brass to form Herrett's.

I've also been wondering about the .460S&W shortened. There were a handful of rifles factory chambered in that. You'd have to trim a bunch off, but I see no difference in trimming a .460 as opposed to trimming any of these other wildcat's. A lot of the larger .45 bullets already have multiple crimping grooves, so might still be able to stretch the bullet out to original .460 length (doubt it).

Like I said, I'm actually plenty happy with the 357Max performance. I'm quite comfortable with the cartridge up to 250yds ... and that's really about pushing field limits (free standing, leaning on tree, etc). Last year, I actually shot mine from a folding lawn chair.

Things I'm looking to improve is extraction is tough ... bare hands is easy, gloved hands not. I'd like to get a tick more velocity, which I should get from AA1680 this year (last year I had Lil'Gun). Plus, I just have a fasination for hunting with a repeater.

Take care, Neal
 
#37 ·
Neal,

That OTT $125 price you are quoting is just for a RECHAMBER of an existing barrel that assumes you are going to rechamber to something that is metal safe (no barrel set back) which is not the case in making a short Herrett. It is just the price to make an electrode and edm the chamber. You don't need a custom reamer to do a short Herrett.

That $130 Shilen unturned blank you mention would need the following work to be put on a lever gun which is what this thread is about: 1. Outside contour on a CNC lathe, 2. Cut threads, extractor groove, piece on chamber end that guides bullet into chamber, clearance for magazine tube, dovetails and tapped holes for sights, cut features that are used to mount forearm and magazine tube (slots and dovetails etc) 3. Crown muzzle 4. Polish and blue. 5. Stamp or engrave. Using an unturned blank to do the Herrett project on a lever gun would be extremely labor intensive ($$$$).

Whoever the gunsmith is that does the job will be able to give the best solutions as to what to start out with. If starting with a new barrel and not just setting one back I would definitely get one from a barrel manufacturer that would match the contour of the existing barrel I took off the gun. Lever actions are not like a bolt gun where once the barrel comes off the lathe it is ready to put on the gun (unless you are mounting open sights.) I know when I embark on a single shot or lever action rebarrel in my shop that there will be quite a bit of time spent on the milling machine in addition the the std threading, chambering and crowning work you would need on any barrel.

I'm not trying to be critical of your suggestions in any way. You have some interesting ideas in your post. I just want to make sure guys considering these types of project understand what is involved.
 
#38 ·
The way I did the GNR was not very expensive at all. I sent him a 357Mag barrel from an H&R Handi-rifle. He reamed the new chamber for $125 and the dies were (IIRC) $75. Even with shipping, I still have more in the scope than I do the rifle. :)

I got 200 Starline cases from Blue Star Cartridge and Brass for $88.84, plus $14 S&H. Case-forming chores were the simplest I've ever experienced, for a wildcat: Lube the case neck, size the case...done. No fire-forming is required. The 445SM is rated for ~40,000psi and necked down to 358GNR has an internal capacity of 45gr H2O.

I don't really want a rimless case because I'm shooting from a single-shot gun with a standing breech; rimmed is better. For a lever-action, tubular magazine, rimmed is also preferred. I have found 6.8SPC brass to be more readily available, but actually more expensive than 445SM, which is typical of bottle-necked cases. I would certainly just use 30/30 brass to form 357Herrett, which would be about the same process I use to form cases for my 30 Herrett barrel. In fact, a 30 Herrett opened up to 35 caliber is what you'll wind up with, depending on how you look at it. :)

I think the 460 S&W, shortened .175" would be an absolute hammer on Indiana deer. It is certainly enough gun for any distance at which we might hunt deer and as far out as trajectory would allow, there are several .452" bullets that would pretty much flatten even a large buck. The 200gr FTX would be my first choice, for its better BC and lower recoil level. It would be no trick at all to have a 460 cut with a short throat, or to just seat the bullet out a little further and/or have a longer jump to the rifling. I'm acquainted with an exceptional gunsmith who has already built a couple of rifles along these lines.

The 357 Max ( http://357maximum.com/ ) is by FAR the easiest, least expensive way to get into a very good Indiana-legal deer rifle. Any other chambering is only going to improve upon it by, at most, 25% and as you pointed out, that just isn't a big deal when the Max is already good out to 200-225 yards. (You state that you're comfortable with it out to 250 yards, but with the 2100fps velocity you're getting, I'd have to see the ballistics chart to understand how much hold-over is involved.)

I prefer to hunt with a long bolt-action rifle. A Model 70, Model 700, 110, etc. just feels right, when I'm in the woods or up in a tree stand. It's how I grew up and what I'm comfortable with. I like lever-action rifles as well, but mostly just for fun shooting. :) What feels closest to me, w/o spending $1,000, is a single-shot like the Encore or H&R. I have come to enjoy those quite a bit.
 
#39 ·
Actually the 200g .452 has a horrible bc ... 0.145 I think. That one of the reasons to keep to the .358 caliber ... 200g ftx is 0.300 (pretty good for a pistol bullet).

I don't remember all my hold overs from last fall (mostly just practice in the fall). I know I was zero'd at 75yds ... and had ~1.5" @150yd. Out to 250 would probably be ~6", or about neck level.

Now, what I don't know yet this year ... is how low my velocity will go from 180g to 200g. I'm hoping not to lose more than 100fps, and then hopefully make that back up using AA1680. I suspect I'm going to have to be happy if I get anything over 2000fps with the 200FTX, but (without ballistic tables) ... I should be going faster out at 100yds.

We'll see this fall. Right now my loading focus is on a new 6.5x284 Savage. The Max really is a hunting rifle.

P.S. Like you said, I think I'd find a lot of interest hunting with some kind of repeater. I operate the Contender fast enough, and it's nice to carry that small of a package through the woods ... but a nice bolt gun would be pretty nice.
 
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