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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone,
I am on a quest for 30-30 improved information. I can't seem to find much of anything in the way of information on them. I found a little in the Ackley Volume #1 book regarding his version which seems to be the most common. So here is what I am asking, if you have one, how do you like it? Any pros or cons to your version? any reloading data? In Ackleys book, he lists a velocity in the range of 2700fps with a 150 grain bullet from a standard Winchester 94 chambered in 30-30 Ackley Improved. I think anyone with a normal 94 in 30-30, would like to be able to do this. If anyone out there has one, or any related info, I would love to hear about it.
Thanks Much
Juan
 

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To Juan:
I believe Paco Kelly did an article on the 30-30 A.I. Click on sixgunner.com then scroll down and find Paco's chronicles. There are lots of good articles that should help you out.  Good Luck and God Bless

Chris
 

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Juan,

Let me start out here telling everyone that I'm new to the .30-30 Ackley.   Two years ago I rechambered a Savage M24 .30-30/20ga over under to .30-30 AI.  It has totally changed the complexion of the rifle's capabilities!

I've been too busy to do any real hard, fast load workups with a variety of bullets/powders as of yet, but suffice it to say that with bullets in the 160-180 grain class that the results are very surprising!

I'm not ready to post data here until I do more testing.

Right now a load using our .30-170g LMNGC bullet sized to .310" to fit the throat loaded with what seems an insane quantity of H335 gives me 2580 fps out of that 24" barreled combination gun with near MOA performance!

I've found for load development, that a good place to start is using .300 Savage data for the bullet weight you are using!  Yep, .300 Savage data, you heard me right!  That is essentially what you have with the .30-30 Ackley Improved in case capacity!

I won't substantiate Mr. Ackley's 150g Load at 2700 fps however.   Some of his top loads were very warm to say the least.   Also both the powders we use today, even though they carry the same numerical designations as the ones he used, are very different in burning rate and energy than those used half a century ago!   Consider too the differences in primers.

A friend of mine made up a .450 Barnes while we were in school together and immediately loaded up some of P.O. Ackley's suggested loads out of his Volume ! manual for the .450 Barnes.   The very first load blew the primer, extruded brass into the extractor slot and locked up the bolt tight!   And that was with a straight walled case!  Ever since then, I've approached those published loads with caution, and never used them as a starting point, EVER!

I'll be doing some more load development on this in days to come and will post a few of those findings... the rest for the loading manual I'm putting together.

Hope it helps!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the information fellas,
Yesterday, I spoke with Gary, of Reeder Custom Guns in AZ. He does a 30-30 improved called the 30-30 GNR. It is similar to the Ackley version, except the shoulder is moved farther forward for more powder space. Lets say, a whole lot more space. They are getting velocity numbers that are within 5% of a 308! All within the acceptable working pressures. I am still on a quest for more info, so anyone that has any, throw it in the pot! So far, the 30-30 GNR sounds like a pretty sweet way to go. Think, near 308 balistics from a 30-30 94! I guess a big bore in 307 would also do it, but where is the fun in that? Also, it is a lot cheaper to have my 94 rechambered for &#36100.00, that it is to find and but another Big Bore. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Take Care
Juan
 

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Mr. Tedman,

I've seen other .30-30 Imroved versions similar to the .30-30 GNR, they are all basically just an Ackley priniple with the shoulder moved forward.   This results in a shorter neck, which with jacketed bullets is fine, but with cast can cause some consternation.

I've seen velocities closer to the .300 Savage than I have the .308 Winchester.  Either way the increased velocities well justify the chambering costs.  I've found that resale value is higher with the standard Ackley Version if you ever decide to sell it.  Folks who don't understand or know about the other versions shy away from them.  Just a thought.

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Marshall,
How much neck length do you suggest,for use with cast bullets. I guess the biggest trick with a 30-30 improved is finding the happy medium. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Thanks Much
Andre
 

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I would be extremely cautious in creating  .308 Winchester class pressure in a standard 94 action.
The Big Bore version, that may be a different story.

But here's a thought before you do it. Since lever actions have always been so popular and great sellers for Winchester, wouldn't you think they'd have created a new cartridge along these lines if it was workable over a long haul? Contrary to what one oft-quoted Internet expert has said, the .307 is not the equal of the .308 Winchester. I had one and safe pressures did not allow .308 ballistics (retained velocity & energy) beyond 200 yards. Within that range, the two are quite close buy why go to the trouble if you can't extend your effective range? I think a .30-30 Improved would be the same if not more hassle.
 

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Mr. Tedman,

May I apologize for my less-than-impressive last posting. I was in a rush and wanted to respond. A bad combination. Please allow me to elaborate on what I was trying to say.

While on the surface a 30-30 Improved seems like a great idea with its increased velocity for little monetary outlay, there are some important things to consider that put some tarnish on the idea. Firstly there is the question of pressure. The 30-30 is an old case that isn't nearly as strong as newer cartridges. When the case is "improved," that weaker brass is stretched much farther than intended. Now for exterior ballistics to approach the .307 or .308 Winchester, interior ballistics must also be similar. That means working pressure in the area of 52,000 CUP or more, a 37% increase over the SAAMI specification for the 30-30.
Let's not forget that this increased pressure is the reason for the "Big Bore" modifications to the Model 94. So you now have a combination of overtaxed brass in an action never intended for such working pressure. If I may quote the following relevent passage from Speer's  Reloading Manual No. 13, p. 263: "We are occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington Model 788. The answer is NO! (Speer's emphasis) The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure."

Secondly I believe 150 grain bullets at 2700 fps is highly optimistic, let alone coming within 5% of the .308 Winchester as indicated by Gary Reeder. That would be quite impressive considering some .308/150 loads can touch 2900 fps from 22" barrels! Marshall is right when he says a 30-30 Imp is more like a 300 Savage. Even then I would hazard it to be a best case scenario.

Finally even if such a round could push 150's to 2700 fps, the exterior ballistics of required flat nose bullets versus the .308's spitzers lose the gained velocity beyond 200 yards. Using Speer's 150 FN and flatbase spitzers for comparison, we see that if both start at an equal 2700 fps the theoretical 30-30 Imp is down quite a bit (2065 vs. 2250) at just 200 yards compared to a modestly-loaded .308. By 300 yards the gap has grown to just under 300 fps. If the .308 is loaded with boattails and/or to its full potential, the rift is greater still by a significant margin. So what is to be gained in the field? Killing power is only marginally increased past 150 or so yards. Trajectory is somewhat flatter but nothing to write home about.To take advantage of each would require more practical accuracy than I've seen in any Winchester 94.

I think that if you have a 30-30 you should enjoy it for what it is and what it represents. A wonderful, historic development in small arms technology that is at its best as a deer rifle under 200 yards. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The majority of game are taken closer still, so you really won't be hindered much at all while hunting. But if you need or want 200+ yard capability in a lever action, I honestly believe you'd be far better off with a real .308 Winchester in a Browning BLR or Savage 99 than some hot rodded 30 WCF that may be on the verge of seizing or blowing up.
 

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#Moderation Mode

We moved this thread from the Leverguns forum, as it will recieve better viewership in the Wildcat section of the forum!

<a href="http://beartoothbullets.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=15&topic=3" target="_self">Moved here</a>
 

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Hello Jaun, did you ever work up any loads for your .30-30 A.I. Or did you go with the .30-30 GNR? I recently had a Savage 840 rechambered to .30-30 A.I. At present time I am working with Speer 130 grain FP with 34 - 40 grains of H4895. There is a lot of others on this forum that love the little .30-30 A.I. I was REALLY wanting to use spitzer bullets but the magazine of the 840 won't allow any bullets heavier than 125 grain. The Speer 130 is almost a pointed bullet and the cannelure works in the 840s magazine.
 

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I've been playing with my 30-30 all this week !!! Great little round!!!!!! Ol Deuce
 

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Ya'll realize this thread is close to 17 years old, right? :)
 
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Yep, I saw that, but was hoping juan had some notes that he would share. I got a lot of info from Will I Org, but can always like to hear from others input.
 
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