Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Is there any practical difference between the .30/.388 and the .308 Norma Magnum? Are they interchangeable? I get the impression that the .30/.338 was a US Army public relations game in the early 1960s aimed at ridiculing the intrusion of foreigners (Swedes) into US match shooting (notably Camp Perry).
 

·
The Shadow (Super Mod)
Joined
·
7,160 Posts
Similar, but not quite is my understanding; the whole wildcat inconsistent thing...

Take a 358 Norma or 338WM, neck them down and you have an instant 308 Norma case.
I have a little brother who shoots a 338WM. So I used to resize them and use them for an old hunting partners 308 NM
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
The .308 Norma was the first 'short magnum' factory cartridge. US match shooters had been shooting the .300 H&H but the long tapered case and factory ammo was never as accurate as the straight-walled, sharp shouldered case. Match shooters had been experimenting with the 30-338 and lobbied for a factory round. Winchester instead went for more capacity, a shorter neck and, in my opinion, an ugly variation called the .300 Win Mag.

Think of the 'Family' Winchester could have had if somebody knew the future---.264 Win, 7mm Rem, 30-338, 338 Win and .458 Win. They're all the same case.
Remington's practice was to make factory what were widely known and proven wildcats--.22-250, 6mm Rem,25-06 and 35 Whelen. The .280 HAD to be longer for safety reasons. A 7-06 will chamber in a sloppy .270.

There are a double handful of .30 caliber cases that holds essentially the same amount of powder. I'd pick the one that feeds the best. :)

Edit to add-- In the late fifties and early sixties, there were a BUNCH of places that would rechamber and open the bolt face on your 03 or P-17 to .308 Norma Mag. It was obvious the US makers had to adopt a .30 belted something in a big hurry. Since short and fat equals the same VOLUME as long and skinny and long and skinny actions were scarce and un-handy, the short .30s were an instant success.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
867 Posts
30/338 Difference

This is a little off the subject.

Many years ago, when preparing to have my 280 Remington reamed to 280AI, I discussed the use of the 280AI for elk with D M Bellm & P O Ackley, whose opinions I held in high regard. As I informed them, 90% of my hunting is white tails, pigs, coyotes, etc. I make a few exotic trips a year, often for elk, but this was in the strong minority.

Both men extolled the virtues of the 30/338 saying that if elk were regularly on the menu, that would be the preferable cartridge into which to rechamber the 280 Rem. However, after discussion, they agreed the 280AI would be more beneficial for my use. That was 1984 and I doubt much has changed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,411 Posts
Is there any practical difference between the .30/.388 and the .308 Norma Magnum? Are they interchangeable? I get the impression that the .30/.338 was a US Army public relations game in the early 1960s aimed at ridiculing the intrusion of foreigners (Swedes) into US match shooting (notably Camp Perry).
I guess your posting about 1968 when SFC Charles Davis won Wimbledon Cup (1000yd) and Leech Cup using both matches 30-338mag. The Army Marksmanship rifle team also used 30-338mag. That was 5 yrs after 300mag came out.

Sierra manual has good write up about Fred Huntington first one to neck up 333mag case and their load data for 30-338mag, they used copy of that rifle used at Wimbledon.

Remington also chamber 40x for 30-338mag.

LCpl Carlos Hathcock USMC used Win 70 300mag to win Wimbledon Cup 1965.

I have 2-30-338mags and nothing against 308 Norma.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
Yes, the Remington Model 40XB was offered in 30-338 in 1961 and the same caliber offered in the Model 70 International Match by special order. The 338 case had been wildcatted to 30 about ten years before the 300 Win. Mag was introduced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,411 Posts
The 40XB, 30-338mag that Remington made was in the Rangemaster and it was also build on a single shot short action.

Remington never made 30-338mag as target rifle and if they did it would of been 40XBR which is the target model.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
The 40XB 30-338 was built on a long M721 action and according to Lacy's Book of the 700, were all repeaters. they were cataloged in 1961, the year before introduction of the Model 700. They stayed in the catalog until 1968 and were still available by special order after that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,165 Posts
Isn't the 338 mag case the same as 7mm Rem mag, 300 win mag and the 458 Win mag? Come to think of it, isn't the 264 Win mag also in that family?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
All but the .300 Winchester are the 'same'. That's why the 30-338 is a much more 'elegant solution' to a 30 cal magnum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
making 30/338 from 300 Win Mag

OK so guess I cannot make 30/338 cases from the 300 Win Mag ?? My 30
/338 is my favorite "go to" rifle for elk, for 8-10 years now. 1917 action, Zorofski scope, great trigger. But i have a bucket full of MT 300 Win Mag cases (seldom shoot it) and would love to convert them. My son has been killing elk with his 300 Weatherby AI and I assume (??) we can shoot .300 H&H to fire form for that rifle. ??


If my typing errors aare a bit irregular it is cause I turned 85 on Tues, the family arranged an ecliose of the sun for my birthday. I would have preferred an earthquake. regardless, my workbench is covered with boxes of See's candy, big gumdrops and several 12-year old single malt. My elk season starts in 6 weeks and I gained 7 lbs this week!! feel sorry for me.:D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
The 300 Winchester is too long and fat to re-size to 30-338 but I'll bet you could trade .300 Win for some 7mm Rem Mag. They work too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
810 Posts
OK, good to know. already have hundreds of 7mmRemMag cases (have 3 of the rifles.). Until I got my 30/338 I shot all of my antelope, moose and mountain goat with a 7mm Mag. My old, old 264 Win shares cases with the 7's. Probably won't trade off the .300 Win Mag as I have the rifle, just never use it. Jack in Oregon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Stick to the question

The original question was 'are the .30/.338 and .308 Norma Magnums the same cartridge?'
I have made .308 Normas from .338 Win Mag cases by simply running the .338s into a FL sizing die to reduce neck size (and push the shoulder back a little). Fireform in my .308 Norma rifle to match the shoulder area to my rifle and I'm good to go. EXCEPT, the .338 Win Mag case is shorter than the Norma. I have some .338 Win cases that are as much as 0.060" shorter (2.560" for Norma, 2.500" for .338 Win Mag). With a whopping 2.620" case length for the .300 Win Mag! With this 0.060" shorter case, does that mean I have a chamber that has at least 60 thousandths of freebore? Will the shorter cases create any long term chamber problems?
So, it seems to me the Americans wanted to throw poo in the face of the Swedes by making a fake .308 Norma Mag with the .30/.338! Nes pas? Like the Russians, the Europeans beat us to space while we played with wannabe wildcats.
PS: I love my .358 Norma Magnum!!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,215 Posts
Norma calibers are longer than American 'short magnums'. Norma cases are made by shortening H&H cases and fire forming.
The Holland and Holland cases were wildcatted by numerous people all over the world. Griffin and Howe built rifles in 35 G&H Magnum in the early 1920s and Charlie Newton had the factory 35 Newton in 1917 that duplicates the Norma.

It all comes down to what action you have available and how you want it to feed. :)

Capacity equals performance. There is NO magic to case shapes, only capacity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,458 Posts
They both use sharp shoulders to burn more powder in the case. An old Speer manual compared the 300 Dietrich to the 300 H & H with muzzle flash photos to show this. The Norma works better in stepped Mauser barrels. It may feed a tad better, too. In Standard receivers they both equal the Winnie Mag.
The M. 1903 conversion was about $20, in 1963. Today's longer receivers are more Winnie Mag friendly. What's neat is that you can use published H 4895 loadsin all three to make up reduced loads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
There are probably half a dozen 30-caliber wildcat magnum cartridges, based on either the 338 Win Mag or the original parent 300 H&H case. They are all within a tenth or two of on another, with no appreciable difference in performance between any of them. Since the belt is there to assure safe headspacing during fire-forming, it's possible to make "this from that", until you're blue in the face.

What's the difference between the 30/338 and 308 Norma Magnum? The latter has a bit more neck length and the shoulder may be a little different. Same applies for the 30 Belted Newton, 300 Durham Mag, 300 Apex Mag, 300 Wade Mag...Mashburn, Ackley #2, etc, etc. All peas in one very large pod.

Frankly, none of these are all that great. If you want a great cartridge, take NVShooter's idea and convert 375 Ruger brass down to the same general length and you've got 30 and 35 Newton Magnum cartridges, with modern propellants. No silly belts to worry about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,411 Posts
The original question was 'are the .30/.338 and .308 Norma Magnums the same cartridge?'
I have made .308 Normas from .338 Win Mag cases by simply running the .338s into a FL sizing die to reduce neck size (and push the shoulder back a little). Fireform in my .308 Norma rifle to match the shoulder area to my rifle and I'm good to go. EXCEPT, the .338 Win Mag case is shorter than the Norma. I have some .338 Win cases that are as much as 0.060" shorter (2.560" for Norma, 2.500" for .338 Win Mag). With a whopping 2.620" case length for the .300 Win Mag! With this 0.060" shorter case, does that mean I have a chamber that has at least 60 thousandths of freebore? Will the shorter cases create any long term chamber problems?
So, it seems to me the Americans wanted to throw poo in the face of the Swedes by making a fake .308 Norma Mag with the .30/.338! Nes pas? Like the Russians, the Europeans beat us to space while we played with wannabe wildcats.
PS: I love my .358 Norma Magnum!!!
I became interested in the 30-338mag late 60's early 70's and I'd been up to Fred Huntington store and he did build some other wildcats.

I've only handle one 308 Norma Mag and that was Browning Safari grade and had no interest in it. I've been shooting 30-338mag little over 30yrs now and I've had other 30 cal mag's build that I also liked.

I'd talk to Fred and his son and his son helped me with my first 30-338mag and used his data for that rifle. They have museum in Fred's old store and last time I seen his 30-338mag it was there.

As to that match, I would expect Army would build rifles to win same as the Swedes and I'm sure had Army lost they would just move on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
The 30-338 was widcatted as soon as the .338 win mag came out in 1958. The .308 Norma mag came out 2 years later. Norma simply moved the shoulder forward .040. This stops shooters from chambering the wildcat round in the Standardized chamber. This seems like a good thing as far as legal liabilities are concerned.
I chambered my custom build to 30-338 because there were more reloading dies available on e-bay at that time. I started my load build up with .308 Norma load data and there were no pressure surprises. Look at the starting loads for .308 norma and .300 win mag in Hodgdon reloading online data. You may find it interesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
The 40XB, 30-338mag that Remington made was in the Rangemaster and it was also build on a single shot short action.

Remington never made 30-338mag as target rifle and if they did it would of been 40XBR which is the target model.
40x BR was the Benchrest gun, 40X Rangemaster was the long range gun for 100 yd matches in both singleshot and repeater actions. Also a 40X built for Highpower in .308.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top