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Hello from Scotland~


Can anyone tell me if an "improved" .308 would have the same neck length as a normal .308 ?? Thus allowing Lee neck sizing dies to be used instead of expensive custom dies ???

Also can some one tell me why there are plenty of 30-06 Improved kicking around, infact i read some where that it was one of the most popular Ackleys yet .308 Improved ?? Web searches have turned up nothing ??

My speer manual tells me that the .308 equals or infact excels over the .30-06 up to 150 gn bullets........The .30-06 wins with heavy bullets 180gn 200gn etc..........so why all the improved -06's ?? and no 08's ??

If i got my .308 sporter Ackley improved im guessing that at the worst i will get even longer case life and at best squeeze a couple of f.p.s with 180 gn bullets ???

Also theres the having "something different" at little cost.........


Englander
 

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Englander,
I dont think P.O. Ackley actualy ever Improved the .308. There is a chambering called the .308 Ackley Improved, but I think it just meets the general design criteria of the Ackley improved cartridges. That is tha the standard cartridge is capable of being fired in the Improved chamber.
I have the dimension of the .308 Davis Improved which is similar but has a 45 deg. shoulder angle.
It is 1.6950" from base to shoulder as oppsed to 1.5598" for the standard .308.
The Davis is 1.7550" from base to the neck shoulder junction, as opposed to 1.7116" for the standard cartridge.
The overal length of the Davis is listed as 2.0450" as opposed to 2.0150" for the standard .308.
This makes the neck of the Davis Improved 0.290" long as opposed to the standard .308 neck of 0.3034" long.
A true Ackley design would not be much different. Anyone with the RCBS Load Program could set up the figures for an Ackley .308 in just a few minutes and come up with the neck dimension.
 

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Ackley never improved the .308 because it's already a very straight, efficient case and any "improvement" would only extend case life, not gain much velocity, and I have cases i have loaded 10+ times, so case life is not a big issue here.
Selmer
 

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.308 Ackley

The .308 Ackley Improved is a chambering I am having a Sako actioned rifle barreled up with to have something "different" and because of my past experience with Ackley chambered rifles. The BEST improvement I have seen with the Ackley cartridges (in my .250 & .22-250 Ackley rifles) is that the shoulder angles allow for the most efficient powder burn of any other design. The most notable advantage is that the Ackley shoulder angle keeps the powder granules inside the case to burn as opposed to a lot of standard cartridges (.308 Win. included) that allow some of the granules into the throat which will erode the riflings much sooner due to the sandblasting action of the powder granules against the throat (throat erosion). This problem (most commonly associated with the over-bored magnum calibers) takes a LOT of shooting to manifest itself but for those who shoot LOTS of ammo like myself it does extend the barrel life substantially. After replacing the barrels on three standard chambered rifles that suffered in accuracy due to throat erosion, and still having the original barrels on the Ackley rifles with the same number of rounds fired through them and no loss of accuracy to date, I chose to rebarrel my remaining rifles in Ackley. It is noteworth that standard cartridges fired in my Ackley rifles come very close in accuracy to the already fire-formed reloaded casings (within .180" group difference) but for accuracy freaks who like to punch the same hole, or at worst a cloverleaf group, the Ackley case design helps out greatly for accuracy & longevity of a particular rifle. This is only one factor of accuracy but I feel it is important enough to share. Happy shooting!

"Don't sin, aim for the mark and keep shooting true!"
 

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If you send three fired cases to Lee with (it used to be 50 bucks) they will make a set of dies from your cases and you can have a Lee collet sizer made.
 

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I have a Sako AII in .308 Improved 40, and with 150 gr Silvertips and 44.2 gr of IMR 3031 i get 2965 fps as verified by my Pact chrono. The primers are still rounded, and i get no pressure signs, so i'm sure i could tip the can a little more. But, it will put three shots touching at 100 yds if i hold it still enough. And, almost 30 deer killed with it didn't complain that it wasn't a real Ackley.

But, you can't just neck-size with a standard die because the case is too big around to fit in the die. I originally bought a Lee set, but they kept scratching my brass even tho i cleaned them first with mineral spirits, and eventually tried honing with 0000 steel wool. So, i bought a set of RCBS dies that were good right out of the box. But, you should go with whatever you prefer. Lee, RCBS, Redding, whatever.

Of all the rifles i own in several calibers, its become my favorite rifle for deer and things of that nature. In fact, i like the Ackley calibers even tho my .257 Roberts AI won't really do anything that a standard .25-06 won't. So. To each his own.
 

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how much better is the brass life of a 30-30 ai over stanfdard 30-30 and will it allow say 100 fps faster speeds safely? and ive heard on that gun the accuracy is also generaly improved is this true to anyones knowledge?
 

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The .308 Ackley Improved is a chambering I am having a Sako actioned rifle barreled up with to have something "different" and because of my past experience with Ackley chambered rifles. The BEST improvement I have seen with the Ackley cartridges (in my .250 & .22-250 Ackley rifles) is that the shoulder angles allow for the most efficient powder burn of any other design. The most notable advantage is that the Ackley shoulder angle keeps the powder granules inside the case to burn as opposed to a lot of standard cartridges (.308 Win. included) that allow some of the granules into the throat which will erode the riflings much sooner due to the sandblasting action of the powder granules against the throat (throat erosion). This problem (most commonly associated with the over-bored magnum calibers) takes a LOT of shooting to manifest itself but for those who shoot LOTS of ammo like myself it does extend the barrel life substantially. After replacing the barrels on three standard chambered rifles that suffered in accuracy due to throat erosion, and still having the original barrels on the Ackley rifles with the same number of rounds fired through them and no loss of accuracy to date, I chose to rebarrel my remaining rifles in Ackley. It is noteworth that standard cartridges fired in my Ackley rifles come very close in accuracy to the already fire-formed reloaded casings (within .180" group difference) but for accuracy freaks who like to punch the same hole, or at worst a cloverleaf group, the Ackley case design helps out greatly for accuracy & longevity of a particular rifle. This is only one factor of accuracy but I feel it is important enough to share. Happy shooting!

"Don't sin, aim for the mark and keep shooting true!"
What you're saying about getting jus as good accuracy and velocity out of a 308 in an altered chamber such as the AI chambers proves you don't know much about what Ackley chambers do. It's physically impossible to get the same velocity from a 308 Win in a 308 AI chamber as a 308 AI in a 308 AI chamber. You're giving up velocity to fireform cases. I know this from experience with our 260 Dingo. We fire 6.5-06 loads to form our brass, and we get nowhere near the 260 Dingo's 3975fps mark wit those loads.
 

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What you're saying about getting jus as good accuracy and velocity out of a 308 in an altered chamber such as the AI chambers proves you don't know much about what Ackley chambers do. It's physically impossible to get the same velocity from a 308 Win in a 308 AI chamber as a 308 AI in a 308 AI chamber. You're giving up velocity to fireform cases. I know this from experience with our 260 Dingo. We fire 6.5-06 loads to form our brass, and we get nowhere near the 260 Dingo's 3975fps mark wit those loads.
Welcome to Shooters Forum. :)

I'd be very interested to hear more about the 260 Dingo. Based on your description, I suspect it is something like the 6.5 Gibbs; the most extreme AI possible on an '06 case, necked down to shoot .264" bullets. What is the primary purpose of the 260 Dingo? I would imagine it's a feral's worst nightmare. :D

With all due respect, it really depends on how the fire-forming is being done. With factory ammo, you're probably correct, but if you're using handloads and jamming the lands with a heavy-for-caliber bullet, the same load recipe will deliver similar velocity whether the case is being formed or not. I've done this with 6.5JDJ, 30 Herrett, 7-30 Waters, etc. In most instances, the loads were not only of a suitable velocity for hunting, the accuracy was more than acceptable.
 

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What you're saying about getting jus as good accuracy and velocity out of a 308 in an altered chamber such as the AI chambers proves you don't know much about what Ackley chambers do
Wow, you really set that guy straight. Who among us has been able to sleep for the last decade while that minor issue sat uncorrected? Good work sir.
 

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Englander; my own take is that the 308 Win. is only a militarized 300 Sav. Imp. It's made to feed in machine guns. A 300 Sav. Imp. has the same net capacity as the 308 Win. I doubt that a neck sizing die made for a 308 Win. will work like you think. I would order a die set made for your Imp. version. That custom die set will neck size without pushing the abrupt shoulders backwards. When the 300 Sav. Imp. came along, there wasn't any 308 Win. Today, there are larger and smaller bore cartridges made on this case. If you're not happy with the 308 Win., then just decide whether you want faster, or heavier, slugs, and then pick up one of its sibs.

FWIW, the Hornady 275 Rigby virgin brass has the same machine gun proof, extraction grooves, and rims, as does the 308 Win., ( 7.62 x 51mm NATO ) cases.
 

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Guys, Englander hasn't been on the forum for 4 years.
 

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Guys, Englander hasn't been on the forum for 4 years.
Steven, ENGLANDER, lurks on the forum and we have discussed it in emails.
Englander has been overcome by air rifles and fly fishing.
His air rifles using walk around bottles and integral suppressors are astonishing. I cannot wrap my thinking around these rather expensive air rifles but he hunts them hard in Scotland. If you are not an air gun guy there is a whole 'nother world out there.
His suppressed air rifles are far more welcome on small farms than his .218 Bee Marlin.
 

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LOL, all shooting is specialized in one way or another. ENGLANDER hunts varmints and small game primarily at night.
Today's air rifles are amazing but as a West Texan I have trouble relating. ENGLANDER has sent me quite a few air rifle magazines and while I am impressed, I have not traded any small game or varmint rifles for a bottle fed, silenced air rifle. I will be the first row admit his rifles are accurate and deadly.
ENGLANDER still shoots his .308 and his .444 Marlin. We have spent a great deal of time discussing heavy for the caliber bullets in both cartridges. A shooter in the UK who does not own property has to work hard to keep firearms.
 

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A shooter in the UK who does not own property has to work hard to keep firearms.
Please elaborate. By "owning property," do you mean a farm or some sort of estate? I was under the impression that UK citizens could own firearms, but it's difficult to get the licensing for such. I remember reading about a man who'd take his .30-06 on the bus with him to the range. It might have been a youtube video, come to think of it. No one aboard the bus seemed to notice a young adult male with an M1 Garand in his hands. Imagine that in America...
 

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ENGLANDER had to prove he had a place where he could shoot his firearms. A gun club membership covered this. Deer hunting is complicated and expensive - but doable.
Varmint hunting with a centerfire or rimfire rifle is a bit more difficult.
The situation is easier with the air rifle.
He cannot carry a knife in his pocket. I don't know if he would carry his rifle openly on a City bus. Even with open carry in Texas I am not sure I would climb aboard a bus with a rifle.
 

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I have never understood the reason for an improved chamber. Finally shot one a few years ago, 250 Ack Imp. Most I noticed about it was it didn't seem to feed from the magazine well very well. I know Ackley liked the 250 best and the most improvement in any of his cartridges was the 250. I think the iggestthing about having an Aclkey or any other imp cartridge is simply to say you do. So you get a 250 hoping for what end? I think it move's up on the 257 Robert's some but doesn't quite catch it. Why not simply get a 257 Robert's if that's what you want?

So, what's the point of an improved chamber? Oh BTW, I don't think the 308 neck die would work for long as at some point the shoulder is gonna need pushed back a bit!
 

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The gain of blowing out the shoulder on a .308 would be zilch! gain in velocity very little indeed if any at all..The .308 is so near being a Ackely IMP to start with and your already maxed out on powder capacity..Also your cost savings would be off set by the expense of the conversion, just not a good deal any way you approach it..

Add to that the .308 is an excellent round and needs no more velocity to do its specified job. Keep in mind the 30-06 IMP is one of the least popular 30 calibers ever, but being on a larger case it would equal a factory loaded 300 H&H, that's adding 100 FPS to a std. 30-06..Check your ballistics..Neither the 308 or the 30-06 gain anything practical from conversion..
 

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A I cartridges increase powder capacity and offer a 'hard' headspacing. Other than that, there's nothing at all to it. The .308 was designed that way to begin with. The only way to 'improve' a .308 is to make it longer and then you have a 30-06.
 
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