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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone using the old 1907 and 1910 Winchester autos?
any information on gathering up some stuff for reloading them would be appreciated.
Would like to make some or buy some jsp bullets.
I probably could make the brass from something else.
Any dies or equipment information would be appreciated.
I am now tired of scrounging up old ammunition and being treated like an idiot when
I try to buy some.
Dont trust someone elses reloads with these fragil rifles.
Thank you
Ron
 

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I owned a Winchester '07 at one time, but didn't use it much as I bought it mainly for my collection. Ammo is hard to find these days as it was discontinued back in the mid 1980's. Accuracy of the .351 WSL is just so-so, but it can be reloaded with cast bullets that give better accuracy than jacketed 180 gr. .351" bullets. Some reform .357 Mag. brass to .351 to use in their '07's The 1910 model in .401 WSL is a more powerful cartridge & I once saw at a gunshow where a dealer had some .401 WSL ammo made from reformed 7.62 X 39 m/m ammo. You can occasionally find shootable ammo at gunshows. Another place you might try for ammo in both calibers is at www.auctionarms.com but they will be listed under collectable ammo. <Good Luck!>:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the reply.
I enjoy shootiing both of them.' But the ammo has really been inflated.
I keep checking at the auction sites , but like most gun shows they treat you like you are an idiot and
the sellers are the only ones that ever knew anything.
Such arrogance. Just because one asks a question about a sale item you get a lecture of why it is so popular and expensive ,and most of the time they are 100% wrong.
I can make brass I suppose with the ak round and my lathe, was hoping to get out of that part of it.
Like most gun enthusists and me , we probably have something laying around we dont need but would benefit others.
And just because I own something does not make it worth 14 extra prices.
Thanks for you help.
Ron
 

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Ron, You can also make .401 ammo out of .38-55 WCF. You have to turn the rim to .455" & trim case to 1.50", expand mouth totake .406" bullets (cast) & fire form.

On the .351 WSL you can use .357 Mag. cases by turn rim to .410" & cut extractor groove. The case will be .090" short but will work okay. Use .352" bullets. Here's a Website where you might find some brass or ammo for each: http://shop.reedsammo.com/main.sc
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What would best be used to expand the mouth? any die you could tell me about?
All the reloading I ever did was with 3 die reloader sets that were available over the counter.
Along with a case trimmer when they got a little long.
I never had to make cases or swage bullets.
I do have a 38-55 so the brass will come in handy.
Can I use a 357 maximum and trun that down to the correct length?
Since the magnum is too short?
Thank you
Ron
 

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Have done the search, but on these boards there should be plenty of information on making .401's. Know I posted a bunch back about 2003 -2004. My cases were made from blown out 7.62X39 brass and worked perfectly.

The .351WSL will need a lathe to make cases, are going to turn 357max. cases to semi-rim and trim them to length.

Are some custom cases available, but be aware that these old blow-back semi-autos are rough on cases. Are rough on over loads too, as they are getting a bit long in the tooth for max. loads.

Slow powders don't work well...it's a blow back action (held shut by a massive breech block, part of which runs back and forth in that hollow fore end), and if the powder burn is too slow, still has considerable pressure when the action opens. Best for either of them ended up to be 4227.

Best advice is to stop when function is 100%, accuracy good, and don't try for the last 100FPS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Have searched and read about everything on the site here.
Also I understand that 303 cases may work?
I wont overload.
If I could find the factory load, ( powder and grains then that is what I would use.
I dont need a moa rifle, got plenty of those.
Just want to keep banging away with these 2 without being ripped a new one by sellers.
Am listening to all input and chasing all leads.
I have a small lathe if it comes down to that.
Thank you
Ron
 

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Can look at them this way. The .401WSL is basically a 44mag. carbine in performance, and differneces we gun nuts like to expound on, but it's a thimble full of difference. The .351WSL is bit more than what a .357 mag. carbine will do. Are useful for the same hunting situations. Think the old .401WSL meight have been the best brush hunting pig gun I've used.

Have made .401's from other cases, but the 7.62X39 conversion is by far the easiest and probably the stronger case. Know I posted a how-to years ago, but it's really not a complicated job. They won't need neck turning/neck reaming to make the mouths thin enough to use and even pop out of fire forming at just about the right length (just need to tim them to even up the case mouths.)

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I did set up to re-swage .357 bullets to .352". Learned a lesson...need to swage them to about .350" than re-re-swage them back up to .352". In swaging down from .357", the jacke would tend to spring back from the lead core, giving horrible accuracy and poor bullet performance. lead just won't spring back when compressed, but jacket material will., so by going too small, then swaging back up to the right size, the jacket was tight to the core.


For the .401, which often uses .406-.408" jacketed bullets, and .410" cast bullets, found that at least some .41mag. bullets worked fine. Were .002" too large, but the loads were stopped before the red line, so it wasn't a real safety isuse. However, over sized jacketed bullets do tend ti jacket foul a barrel a great deal more than the correct diameter bullets would.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I know I probaly read your post about it , the 7.62X 39?
Is it fire forming with just a primer, grits and lube?
Then trim case down?
Do you have to do rim work on it?
How is those grits on my 100 year old barrel?
Ma just try to resize some cast lead with no jacket?
Just use a check?
Ron
 

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Have to do one other thing before fire forming, and it's best to hunt up an old STEEL .41mag. die (you may well beak a carbide die's insert).

Need to size the case right up to the rim, so can't use a shell holder...just a flat piece of steel for the case to sit on, then drive it out with a rod. IF sized this way, are sizing the solid brass part of the case, and it will drive out as a slight semi-rim.

the alternate is to lathe the case slightly a the head just ahead of the rim to form that semi-rim. Once formed, will use a standard 7.62X39 shell holder for the loading process.

From there, it is a mater of fire forming to blow the case out nearly straight, trimming to even it up, and loading .401's. Can buy semi-cutom dies, or make-do with .41mag. dies.

Didn't have much luck with lead bullets, but others reported they did. Lyman once listed loads for cast bullets at .410", which is a standard 41mag size.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So before the grits I do this with a STEEL .41 MAG FULL Sizing die. all the way to the flat steel shell pusher, and drive it out with a rod?
Will sure have to be lubed up.
That will be a slow go, I guess it is worth it getting a new bass case.
Then prime and fire form with grits.
Ron
 

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You only have to do that drastic size once for the life of the case, so while it is slow, you'll never have to do it again.

Yep..GOOD lube (Imperial Die Sizing Wax) and a strong press.

Have done the job with large shop vice. Lube the case, put the case in the die as far as you can by finger pressure, then put both into the vice...case pressed in by the jaws of the vice. Then put a soccket (from a socket drive set) over the case (inside the die), a rod in the die from the front, and use the vice jaws to push the case back out into the hollow of the socket.
 

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.351 is easy to make, just turn down the rim on a .357 Maximum case, shorten, and size. There are some molds out there, I use a Lee group buy that Lee did a close out on a few years back. Lap out a Lee .338 push thru sizer to ,351 or .352, and you can actually size down .357 bullets to the proper diameter.
Easiest to turn down the rim with a lathe, but with very careful file work, it can be done with an electric drill. Most sources say to cut a new extractor groove, I find it isn't needed with my rifle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
turning a case down is not a problem , I have a smal lathe to do it, but the 351 has a really beveled extrator groove cut where the maximum does not.
I will give it a try.
cant find a .350 or a 352 lube die, lee says it will have to be custom made.
I notice some bullet manufactures make a 180 gr. 357 JSP where most stop at 158 grains.
I wonder what top punch I would use with the die for a round nose.
I hate to be a pain but never had to resize bullets or make brass.
Just bought the type I needed and loaded them.
Thank you
Ron
 

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Look over your rifle, make the extractor groove work with that extractor (unless you have several .351's your loading for, why would you care if they fit some other rifle?)...may find, as I did, the factory extractor groove was much larger than needed. Make the groove deep enough that the extractor isn't putting a lot otf tension on the caase... too shallow an extractor goove/too much extractor tension just seems to lead to miss feeds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have reloaded for over 30 years, never did have to resize a bullet or form brass, but I have basics of what I need , but how do I " Lap out a Lee .338 push thru sizer to ,351 or .352, and you can actually size down .357 bullets to the proper diameter"
and where can I find jacketed .41 mag bullets with the proper weight and size .406 ?
Does anyone have a very old reloading manual that has the data for 315 and 401?
I could use some information on what Brand and # of manual to look for?
Or a scan of the page?
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Swaging vs. Sizing?

I have a couple questions besides the ones in the previous post.
You were talking about reducing the size of the .357 to a smaller size in 2 steps.
Could one increase the size say from a smaller bullet?
Like using a .348 to bump up to .351
or a 40 cal. S&W or 10mm to bump to .406 ?
Also are the lee Lube size thru dies that are listed the size indicated or is that the size of the sized bullet?
They don't list a .350 0r 352 but they list a .401.
Is that caliber size of decimal size?
then I would need a .406 ?
Ron
 

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Never tried bumping them up from 10mm (or from 348)... had a system that worked, and the ammo was accurate, so experimenting wasn't on the agenda.

A friend made the bump up dies; he'd made some in the past to form .251's into .258's. Not all .357's would have bullet jacket spring back, some brands would take to sizing down without that problem. Won't know until you try,

A press mounted swage die would be best, and the lee push-through type might work if of the right diameter (or possibly two dies, each working .003"). Would need to either custom make it, of adapt one from a smaller size. What size? Rather than the standard size, would slug the bore and make the bullet match your bore (which may be .353" or .352").

Same deal with the .401..need to know your bore size then make the bullets to match. .408's worked fine for me. Even the factory 170gr. 410" bullet worked fine, as we have the control of the powder charge and aren't loading to max, can stop once functioning is achieved. those 170's have such a short bearing area, being over sized didn't seem to be a problem, but it wouldn't be my favorite hunting weight (but it does work quite well on racoons and opossums).

Have lost the loading data and all the old manuals, but Lyman was the last one listing loads... but considering you'll be using adapted bullets, cases with differenet volumes from factory, and that powders may have changed a bit over the years, I'd just start off with a conservative charge of 4227 and work up in small steps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
sizer or swage?

A couple of questions.
Is a lube sizer like the lee push thru a "downsizer" type die and the swage dies w/top punch an enlarger type?
Can you use jacketed bullets on each?
If I found one that need enlarging like the down sizer type , to make it the size I needed
what would I use to enlarge it, a special made reamer or?
Like you said I need to slug the barrel first, and I will but I am just trying to perpare.
Thank you
Ron
 

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I have reloaded for over 30 years, never did have to resize a bullet or form brass, but I have basics of what I need , but how do I " Lap out a Lee .338 push thru sizer to ,351 or .352, and you can actually size down .357 bullets to the proper diameter"
and where can I find jacketed .41 mag bullets with the proper weight and size .406 ?
Does anyone have a very old reloading manual that has the data for 315 and 401?
I could use some information on what Brand and # of manual to look for?
Or a scan of the page?
Ron
Use a piece of 1/4 inch rod for a mandrel, cut a slot in the end of it, and slip in a piece of 120 or 180 grit emery cloth. Chuck it into a drill, lube the cloth with oil, and simply run the drill for several seconds into the die. Keep it moving. Remove it every minute or so, and drive a bullet thru it and check diameter. Won't take but a few minutes to lap it to size. You can also have Lee make you a custom sizer, but it will take more money and time.
I've modified several of their sizers, it's not a big, complicated job.
 
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