Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Friends All..It is not my intention to start a never ending arguement (as we have seen) over one caliber vs another.....But, I was thinking that if in fact the .45 Long Colt is a better caliber due to the fact there as more area on the base of the bullet...meaning equal velocity with equal weight bullet, at less pressure....then why isn't the .480 Ruger Better???????? James C. Gates
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,298 Posts
Well James, that's easy, because you can't get it in a Blackhawk or a Bisley!

I'm not joking either, I'd buy it in an instant if it was in one of those guns, but I don't think it can be done without some redesign by Ruger (open frame window & 5-shot).

Can't afford Freedom Arms, unfortunately. And not interested in lugging around a SuperRedhawk all day either.

I might be talked into a standard Redhawk with a 5.5" barrel in .480.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Mike, I understand where you are coming from...but, I am asking these people that argue to no end that the .45 Long Colt is a better caliber for the reasons stated....then using their own theory, why isn't the .480 Ruger better than either the .44 Mag. or the .45 Long Colt? James
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,486 Posts
Why did you stop? by the same argument, the 50AE would be better than any smaller round.

Given that the steel doesn't become too thin to contain the pressure, then having more base area to push against results in more velocity for a given bullet weight.

But there does come a time when you just have to ask 'Why?"...I don't hunt things that are measured in tons, so my need for all of that penetrtion seems to be more limited.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Well, first of all it is not my theory and you are correct about the 50. Let's forget about the gun and concentrate on what has been said about the area of the base of the bullet of a .45 Long Colt. No one seems to be wild about the .480 Ruger and I am in no way pushing it. I'm not even interested in what game it is being used on at this time.....rather strictly looking for a reason, based on their theory of the Colt having more area vs pressure to tell me why the .480's larger area would not be an advantage over to Colt and 44??????? James C. Gates
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Also....Since it is my understanding that the moderators on the forum are selected due to their broad experience and expertise on the gun and ammo field....I would like their input on this question? James C. Gates
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,298 Posts
Friend James,

I think that you give the moderators more credit than they deserve (speaking for myself anyway)!

I do agree that it should be possible for the .480 to do more 'work' at the same or lower pressure levels than the .44 and .45 Colt. That is basic physics. And the larger bullet diameter, if it translates to larger meplat, should give a bigger wound channel if velocities are similar.

However..... to get good sectional density, when you go up in caliber you have to go up in bullet weight also. At some point the shooter runs out of recoil tolerance. I know that you would agree that control of the firearm and shot placement are the most important factors for success, and in the case of mean hogs, preserving one's hide as well.

I know my limits... the 30,000CUP .45 loads are about it. This is one reason why I have not moved up to the .454 Casull. I consider the recoil / controllability of the 300gr bullets in the .44 Mag at 40,000CUP to be on par with the recoil/controllability of the .45 Colt at 30,000 cup (and I have had 7.5" Bisley Blackhawks in each). However the muzzle blast of the .45 Colt at 30,000CUP is definitely less than the muzzle blast of any of the 'magnums' at 40,000CUP.

It is probably no real surprise that I do my best revolver shooting with the .357. Even with full-power hunting loads, recoil just isn't a factor in a standard weight Blackhawk, at least compared to the same gun in .44/.45.

Now I will say that under hunting conditions, often we can ignore the issue of recoil, up to a certain point. Case in point.... a while back I had an opportunity to shoot a varmit with my snubby .357 (2" barrel and lightweight gun), using full power Cor-Bon loads. While I consider this combination to be absolutely punishing at the range, I didn't notice the recoil at all in the field (I had a chance to put earplugs in so muzzleblast was not part of the equation). However, one does need to practice with a firearm to gain confidence and proficiency with it.

To close, having killed animals with the .357, .44, and .45 colt, I would say that all can perform well with the right bullet in the right spot. So we'll add the .480 to the list, for the shooters who can handle it.
 

·
Beartooth Regular
Joined
·
2,145 Posts
Hi James,
I can just see you grinning as you stir the pot!:D
Here's the opinion of one "expert" moderator -
You are talking about theories of cartridge efficiency. I enjoy theories, theoritically speaking. BUT, when I go to shoot something I want a) a gun that goes bang everytime and b) a cartridge that will reliably kill whatever I'm shooting at with the least amount of recoil possible! That's why I'll never own a 480 and even my 44 mag loads are fairly moderate!

Truthfully, I'm not an EXPERT at anything, but I stick by my opinion! IDSHooter:p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Friends All...Yes, I was pulling some chains for the fun of it! And the replies are on the point. It is a fact that all things being equal (weight, velocity, etc) that the larger base areas equal less pressure. Even with the limited replies here, the important fact begins to surface....all of these calibers paired with proper bullets will kill dead, dead. So....the wise shooter selects what he can control! The ability to control recoil has absolutely nothing to do with manhood, it's simply a nerve deal! Having said that...the real reason for these rather long runs is because different shooters have deeper reasons on selecting a caliber than they even realize....and that's fine! Traditional likes or dislikes, or even justifying a purchase, or what one might have use in a kill, and many other reasons affect his choice of favorite calibers. In the some 50 years I have hunted with handguns, I ran the same pattern. Somewhere along the line it dawned on me that the single most important factor in selecting a caliber was controlibility, fit, and bullet selection (design)......period. All of us should be pushing this to the new shooters coming to this forum for advice, and not falling for the latest fad advertisement. Of corse, these statements are aimed at the handgun hunter mainly. Well, this has been fun..Best Regards To All, James
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
James,

Here I thought I was asked to moderate because of my "moderation" rather than my brainpower or experience 8*)

I am at the point now when Col. Klink asks me a question I say "I know nothink, noooothnink!"

I do grasp what you are saying and why you felt led to dip in the pot. Hopefully, if we stir long enough, the good puppy meat will rise to the top.

Having shot a .475 Linebaugh in a custom, ported, 3" revolver, I can say that I believe the real big bores to be most effective BUT I am not effective with them. The .44mag is a bit much for me so the best I could do was .45Colt (and not top end loads either!)

Looking at it all in hindsight, I could probably live out my days with a couple of .357's and a good rifle, but then I would not have all the nostalga of the .45Colt nor the fun of sending little roundballs after rabbits.

Heck with power, give me fun and good shot placement any day!

After all, "moderation" is the name of the game 8*)

Scotty
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Scotty and All...We have seen some real thought behind this run! However, back to my original question concerning the area of the base of the bullet in the .45 Long Colt (yes, I do know that's not the name on the box) and why if it is ballistically better than the .44 Mag....then why isn't the .480 Ruger better than either the.44 or .45? Since there was over a 1000 that looked in on ".44 Mag vs. 45 Long Colt" and the major reason given was area of base vs pressure in the Colt.....the why isn't there an answer forthcoming?
Well, I suppose I have beaten that dead horse enough. I shot top loads for years in both the .44 Mag (tested all of Marshall's) and the .45 Long Colt. I had my right hand operated on and some bones replaced with metal. I stepped down to Marshall's 185 gr .358" and 16 grains of WW296 in my 6" S&W 686. Killed quite a few hogs and river pest. I honestly can't tell you that the bigger guns would have been better as all were killed dead! This led us to test both marshall's 185 gr and Rock Island's 180 gr with .280" meplats (same as the famous Keith 429421) and after some 16 hogs were killed by the group (14 one shot kills and none lost)with the .357, plus some large stuff with the rifles in that caliber....I have a new appreciation for the .357 (note-with the proper bullet!)
As "controlibilty" is finally beginning to surface on the forum, I think this is a healthly approach!
Best Regards To All, James C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
572 Posts
James,

At the risk of over simplifying this, are we not in persuit of the fine line between "enough" and "too much"?

I see it as similar to fat tires (big bullet base) on a mud buggy. The more your buggy weighs (power/size) the wider tire you need to stay on top. This is a great idea untill you get enough size and weight that no amount of tire will keep it from sinking (felt recoil) and when it is sunk, it is pure torture to get unstuck!

A little four wheeler will run all over the mud flats, but will not handle multiple passengers and gear. A Monster truck will perhaps haul the gear and friends, but becomes a maintaniance nightmare (prone to tearing itself apart unless custom built like the spendy five shooters) and is sure not a cheap date in the fuel department (lead and powder perhaps) The monster trucks only seem to come out on special occasions like fair time (or African hunts)

I know that I can haul out a moose with a 4 wheeler but I am forced to make multiple trips. On the other hand, I can have alot of fun playing with a 4 wheeler between moose hunts.

I believe that for each of us, the line is different. I am convinced that if you do not enjoy shooting a particular firearm, you will have a hard time becoming proficiant with it. I know that there are folks that just lOVE to shoot them big honkers and do it well. That does not mean that someone else cannot cross the mudflat with less.

Now, if that did not muddy the water for you all, I will get a bigger spoon 8*)

Scotty
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
And now for my 2 cents worth. I think, all things being equal, (same handgun design, gunweight, bullet weight and velocity of the bullet) that the .480 would have less pressure and subsequently less recoil than the .45 long colt with identical footpounds of energy. The Taylor K.O. will be greater but penetration will be less. This is the same argument made for the .45 long colt's advantages over the .44 magnum. So, those arguing for the .45 based on these facts should be estatic on the concept of the .480 in their favorite handgun. For me, I'll take a caliber with an adequate diameter and the deepest penetration at a recoil I can handle comfortably. For me, thats the .44 mag. For others, that may be the .454 Casull, and yet others may opt for the .474 Linbaugh. I believe penetration is important and the .44 mag will out penetrate the larger diameter calibers at simular velocities. Amen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Splendid! Rob hit the nail exactly on the head...the same arguement could be leveled at the .45 Long Colt by the .480 Ruger as the .45 Long Colt levels at the .44 Mag.......However at best both arguemnts are academic. As was pointed out, go with what you feel comfortable with. Bottom line is...any of the mentioned calibers with a reasonable velocity and proper bullets, put where they should be, will kill cleanly any game that should be hunted with a handgun. The prime concern should be what one can honestly handle, buy what you like, go hunting, and leave the senseless arguements to the techocrats..James C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
229 Posts
James:

It's good to see your posts again.

Since I read the 44 vs. 45 thread, I have been wondering: It appears that the 45 accomplishes the same velocity at 30,000 psi as the 44 does at 40,000, bullet weights being equal. So the 45 is getting 1/3 more work done than it's pressure would indicate. But, the base of the 45, (.452 squared), is only 11% larger than that of the 44, (.429 squared). Where is the rest of the 33% more work coming from? I'll have to guess that it's coming from reduced friction, as the 45 would have a shorter bearing surface. I'll have to ask Marshall if he has bearing lengths available for bullets of the two calibers.

Darrel
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,298 Posts
Tio,

Don't forget case capacity either. 300gr. .45 is shorter than 300gr. .44 (if properly designed!) and most of the high-performance .45 Colt bullets are designed to load to an OAL of around 1.660", which is over the SAAMI max length for the cartridge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
There is no magic involved in the pressure ratio between .45 Long Colt, with its larger base area. It's the same thing we have to deal with in the relationship in pressures between the 12 ga and 20 ga shotshell development. You must also take into consideration the Expansion Ratio between the same to cartridge cases. The extra volume in the .45 Long Colt allows the pressure to be lower (more space in sq.in. vs. pounds per sq. in. pressure. Of course, the same physics apply in the .480 Ruger. Most of the recoil, less barrel rotation due to bullet weight, occurs at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel. The "jet" effect caused by Muzzle Pressure is the single most overlooked factor in handguns. There is some difference in "felt" recoil due to the design of the handgun's frame and how far the barrel plane is above the hand. It order to get the required velocity today, slow burn powders must be used. This then causes high muzzle pressure, therefore high "Jet" effect. This, of course, is what causes the fire ball effect on the muzzle with slow burn powders. Since the .45 Long Colt has a higher Expansion Ratio in the barrel and cylinder, there is less muzzle pressure, therefore less recoil if both firearms weigh the same. The proper formula for the area of the base..Pi x Diameter of the bullet squared divided by 4. When a barrel is ported, the high muzzle pressure is diverted upwards, thus reducing the rearward recoil.
So......It all boils down again to shoot what you can control in high stress hunting conditions....James
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,298 Posts
That would explain why I got noticably more muzzle flip from my .44 Bisley than my .45 Bisley, even though the downrange ballistic performance was similar, and in fact the powder charges were nearly identical as well. Thanks James.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,429 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Mike...That is a classic example of what I was speaking of about "Jet" effect. It is noticed more between 5" and 7"....below that they both "jet" badly, above that the pressure begins to drop. I might also add that between those numbers is where it is hard to get small variations shot to shot. If one finds a bullet weight/powder weight combonation that has very low variation, he knows he has an excellent load.
My 6" .357 Magnun does not recoil with the sharp twisting movement with BTB/RIB 185/180 gr full loads as it does with full load 150 jacketed. More of a smooth roll back and not as fast....therefore "feels" like less recoil. It's the same on the .45 LC. People just don't realize there are two properties of recoil..the amount and dwell time. A larger amount spread over a period of time "feels" like less than less, but quick.....James
 
1 - 20 of 58 Posts
Top