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Discussion Starter #1
It pretty much accepted that the 357 Magnum and 10mm are ballistic twins when shot from handguns but what about from a carbine? Wouldn't the 357 magnum get a bigger boost from the longer barrel since the 357 case is bigger and can take advantage of slower burning powders? It's hard to find any 10mm rifle info on the net but I'm guessing the added velocity from a longer barrel isn't nearly as significant as that of the 357.
 

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I don't accept that they are "ballistic twins" even in a handgun. I know there are some shooters who like the 10mm, I'm not one of them. You can't argue with the fact that it's a powerful round in a semi automatic, but I think it lacks the versatility of the 357mag.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think they're pretty close when comparing a 4" revolver to a 4.5" semi auto but as the barrels get longer I'd expect the 357 to pull ahead. I'm interested in learning what kind of velocity gains can be had with longer barrels for the 10 mm. I'm sure someone will post a link to ballisticsbytheinch but they use weak ammo and they're results are all over the place and inconsistent . It would be interesting to hear some real world numbers from 10mm carbine owners since I already know what a 357 magnum out of a marlin lever gun can do
.
 

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Wouldn't the 357 magnum get a bigger boost from the longer barrel since the 357 case is bigger and can take advantage of slower burning powders?
Oh yeah, the 18" barrel on my 77/357 pumps velocities up by a lot. Velocity gain with a 158gr jacketed bullet is about 500fps above the velocity of my 4" SP101. 180gr bullets in the carbine hit speeds I can get with a 125gr bullet in my handguns. If a decent shot needed to fill his/her freezer with a .357 carbine, it would work just fine out to at least 100yds. Accuracy is all you could ask for in a 5.5lb rifle, and mine will shoot 2-2.5" groups any day @ 100yds, sometimes less.

The thing I've had less luck with is getting cast or reduced loads to shoot well, or at least so far. But I keep trying.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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The .357 mag will win in a rifle barrel, I predict. The 10mm doesn't have enough case capacity to use the really slow handgun powders (ie. 296 / H110).

Both should be impressive, though.
 

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With less case capacity AND a larger bore volume to fill with gases, the 10mm is not going to see the same velocity gains as the 357, in a carbine-length barrel.
 

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With less case capacity AND a larger bore volume to fill with gases, the 10mm is not going to see the same velocity gains as the 357, in a carbine-length barrel.
I had a 9mm carbine for many years. It was a Marlin, and it was about as accurate as a 9mm gets. Good enough for groundhogs at 75yds or so. The velocity gains over a handgun were far less than the gains with the .357. Few combinations in the 9mm exceeded 150fps from handgun to carbine, most loads in the .357 net an additional 500fps, and many over 600fps.

My best loads in the 9mm used Blue Dot and a 125gr bullet, in the .357, 2400 or W296 have had the best numbers for speed.
 

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I sure don't except that fact you posted!:(

Now I have had a .357 mag (Colt Python) for 25 years. I also remember and purchased the Super VEL ammo back then, which was very HOT. The PYTHON was a great accurate revolver but I sure would not put it up against a 10mm pistol especially one with a 6 inch barrel. It makes over 760-lbs of kinetic energy and velocity is 1600fps. Underwood sells the ammo. The .357 mag can not do such a thing. :rolleyes:

The .40 Super will do 1800 fps using 135 grain bullets. Kinetic energy is well over 900-lbs or Kinetic Energy.:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Can you give me a link? I haven't been able to find any 10mm carbine data.Thanks in advance

From Buffalobore website
18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps

From lyman 49th rifle section - 20" barrel

125gr. 2317 fps - 22gr. H110
140gr. 1955 fps - 17.1gr. N110
158gr 1829 fps - 17gr. H110
170gr. 1704 fps - 15gr. H110

Hogdgon 2013 reloading manual rifle section - 18.5" barrel

110gr. 2398 fps - 23gr. H110
125gr. 2276 fps - 22gr. H110

The Lyman and Hogdgon rifle loads are the same as the pistol loads and are all under 35k psi so they can be fired in weaker pistols. I have no idea what powder and pressure Buffalobore uses, but my guess is it's within SAAMI specifications. Boutique ammo like Buffalobore and Underwood are most likely loaded with powders not available to consumers.
 

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Can you give me a link? I haven't been able to find any 10mm carbine data.Thanks in advance

From Buffalobore website
18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps

From lyman 49th rifle section - 20" barrel

125gr. 2317 fps - 22gr. H110
140gr. 1955 fps - 17.1gr. N110
158gr 1829 fps - 17gr. H110
170gr. 1704 fps - 15gr. H110

Hogdgon 2013 reloading manual rifle section - 18.5" barrel

110gr. 2398 fps - 23gr. H110
125gr. 2276 fps - 22gr. H110

The Lyman and Hogdgon rifle loads are the same as the pistol loads and are all under 35k psi so they can be fired in weaker pistols. I have no idea what powder and pressure Buffalobore uses, but my guess is it's within SAAMI specifications. Boutique ammo like Buffalobore and Underwood are most likely loaded with powders not available to consumers.
I don't have any numbers (I hope to someday soon), but I've been working on just such info for a while, and I'm pretty sure everyone's right that the 10mm Auto will gain a fair amount from longer barrels, but there's really no really slow burning powder data for it. Probably will push 180s to around 1400fps and 135s to a little over 2000fps.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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I think that is a pretty fair guess. It appears that the slowest powder that could be used might be AA#9 or thereabouts, and with 180gr. bullets, it will only hold around 10 grains or so.
 

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This thread might be irrelevant since I cannot find any 10mm rifle at any reasonable
cost. I own two 10mm pistols however and would love to have a single shot like
the Handi-Rifle in 10mm. somewhat like the 357 maximum, I suspect that any
10mm rifle would allow the bullets to be loaded to a longer overall length which
would permit more powder in the case.

If anyone knows of any 10mm rifles please supply the info here.

Both the 357 and the 10mm are routinely loaded to slightly higher than the
SAMMI max pressures... In the Handi Rifle single shots it is common for
folks to ream the chambers to accept the even longer 357 maximum and
those still shoot the 357 mag without problem or also 38 special. That is
what I feel would make the 357 rifle superior ( unless you have a 10mm pistol
and need the interchangability of ammo capability )
 

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Now I have had a .357 mag (Colt Python) for 25 years. I also remember and purchased the Super VEL ammo back then, which was very HOT. The PYTHON was a great accurate revolver but I sure would not put it up against a 10mm pistol especially one with a 6 inch barrel. It makes over 760-lbs of kinetic energy and velocity is 1600fps. Underwood sells the ammo. The .357 mag can not do such a thing. :rolleyes:

The .40 Super will do 1800 fps using 135 grain bullets. Kinetic energy is well over 900-lbs or Kinetic Energy.:cool:
The .357 Mag out of a Coonan semi auto with Buffalo Bore 125gr can do over 1,800 fps, which out classes the 10mm. BUT that's not really the point, the point is high KE doesn't mean much of anything but it seems like some people fixate on high energy numbers, even when they're coming from light for caliber bullets moving fast. A 10mm 135gr at 1600 fps isn't going to penetrate as well (not real well at all on large animals) as a 250gr .45 moving at 900 fps, so despite having more "energy", it isn't as capable.
 

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This thread might be irrelevant since I cannot find any 10mm rifle at any reasonable
cost. I own two 10mm pistols however and would love to have a single shot like
the Handi-Rifle in 10mm. somewhat like the 357 maximum, I suspect that any
10mm rifle would allow the bullets to be loaded to a longer overall length which
would permit more powder in the case.

If anyone knows of any 100 rifles please supply the info here.

Both the 357 and the 10mm are routinely loaded to slightly higher than the
SAMMI max pressures... In the Handi Rifle single shots it is common for
folks to ream the chambers to accept the even longer 357 maximum and
those still shoot the 357 mag without problem or also 38 special. That is
what I feel would make the 357 rifle superior ( unless you have a 10mm pistol
and need the interchangability of ammo capability )
Mech Tech makes CCUs for 10mm for both 1911 and Glock frames, I believe. If you do not have such a frame, the overall cost of getting this setup would probably be around $1000 for a bare bones CCU.
Olympic does/did make a 10mm AR-15, but I had issues with the magazines. Again, around $1000 unless you have an AR-15 lower to put an upper on. Further, I'm not sure if they're far enough past the "OMG gotta buy a MSR before they're banned!" craze that they're making the non-5.56mm guns/uppers again.

I have one of the Mech Techs in 10mm and it's pretty decent, in terms of accuracy. It's ugly as sin, and I'm not sure if the slightly humorous "sproing" noise it makes each shot ever goes away.

A single-shot rifle could allow for the bullet to be seated out further, possibly, but there's still the upper limit of the lands contacting the bullet. Any repeater, however, will be subject to issues of feeding and rounds fitting into box magazines if you make the ammunition longer.
 

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The 10mm is higher on the food chain than a 357. Kinetic energy is a poor indicator of terminal performance. The 10mm is larger diameter and more bullet weight. The 10mm propels 220 grain hard cast to 1200 fps. The 10 mm is close to the 41 mag on the food chain.
 
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I've come to the conclusion that the 357 Magnum and the 10mm in a handgun are pretty much ballistic twins, but the 41 magnum is in a different league all together. The 357 Magnums advantages in a carbine are 1) more case capacity 2) slower powders 3) higher velocity 4) Higher sectional density bullets for deeper penetration 5) Higher ballistic coefficient bullets that retain more energy downrange 6) flatter shooting. The 10mm has 1) a fatter bullet.
 

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Great pissing contest. :)

Looking at references that cover the .40's and the .357 in depth, the argument appears to have all of the utility and purpose of discussions related to the .270/.280, or the .243/6mm Remington. A practical comparison would be semi auto or revolver in a law enforcement carry discussion. Hunting with any of them, differences would be more or less irrelevant, based on 50 years of shooting deer, elk, antelope and bears, with all sorts of rifles, shotguns, and bows. Both would be marginal in most shooters hands, a skilled shot wouldn't care one way or the other. The critter would likely decline comments.
 
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