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Wowzers talk about thread revival but timely... :)

I'm right now talking with both SSK and MGM I'm looking at buying a new 14" T/C Contender barrel was thinking 35 Rem, 7-30 Waters, 7mmBellm, 30-30, 308Bellm, 309JDJ for my 12 year old son to hunt with.

If that 350 Legend is a 150 yard deer capable combo it just might be the answer I have been looking for.

and yes I still shoot my 18" 10mm Contender had it out a couple times last week I only have my Colt Delta Elite and G29 for handguns right now though.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Recoil might be a tad much for a 12 year old.... I have little experience with Contenders, but remember being surprised at how much recoil the lowly .30-30 had! Certainly manageable with practice, but maybe something to be aware of when you start.

If I was going to go .35 cal in that platform, might as well get the .35 Rem and get all the performance you can. The "Legend" may be a legend in the mind of its creator, I'm thinking...... Personal opinion, of course.
 

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Not sure how you came to your conclusion, but a 220 grain hard cast in the 10mm at 1200 fps out of a 5" 1911 is higher on the food chain than any 357 mag load and not far behind a 41 mag.

10mm Auto 220 Grain Hard Cast Flat Nose Box of 50
There is no way with 10mm to achieve 1200fps with 220gr bullets without EXCEEDING greatly any powder mfgrs loading recomendations. MAYBE with the help of a rifle barrel ??? .... IN FACT there are no current loading recipes to get a 200gr bullet to 1200 fps. Only in the early days of 10mm were there some ammo that with 200 gr bullets achieving 1200 fps but the pistol mfgrs ( S&W ) pointed out those loads were in excess of SAMMI pressure standards
 

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Check out something called the "357 Maximum." 6 or 8 years ago when you could get 357 barrels for single shot shotguns.... there was the ability to get a reamer to lengthen the chamber and you could use these "extra long 357 cases" which held a lot more powder.... I believe the newly provided quantity was equal to powder capacity of 30-30 rifle and the performance of 30-30 could be equaled.

very similar in concept to rimfire 22 short and 22 long rifle
 

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Wowzers talk about thread revival but timely... :)

I'm right now talking with both SSK and MGM I'm looking at buying a new 14" T/C Contender barrel was thinking 35 Rem, 7-30 Waters, 7mmBellm, 30-30, 308Bellm, 309JDJ for my 12 year old son to hunt with.

If that 350 Legend is a 150 yard deer capable combo it just might be the answer I have been looking for.

and yes I still shoot my 18" 10mm Contender had it out a couple times last week I only have my Colt Delta Elite and G29 for handguns right now though.
The smart play for the above that you would NEVER regret would be the 308 with down loaded ammo.

20 years from now it will be able to shoot full power 308s and you will still have a useful rifle. All those other obsolete calibers reduce your gun to value zero.
 

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There is no way with 10mm to achieve 1200fps with 220gr bullets without EXCEEDING greatly any powder mfgrs loading recomendations. MAYBE with the help of a rifle barrel ??? .... IN FACT there are no current loading recipes to get a 200gr bullet to 1200 fps. Only in the early days of 10mm were there some ammo that with 200 gr bullets achieving 1200 fps but the pistol mfgrs ( S&W ) pointed out those loads were in excess of SAMMI pressure standards


Buffalo Bore. 220 gr Cast advertised at 1200, actual fired in 5" barrel was 1175 in one and a bit over 1200 in gun number 2. It's there on the website for 220gr. 10mm ammo. Personally I could care less which is "better" between the 357 (I have three) and 10mm (I have none), but I would prefer the 10mm for things that are big and hairy.
 

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I didnt say 1200 could not be achieved. I said it cannot be done within published SAMMI pressure limits.
Would guess 1200 fps with 220 at 40K psi

Which website are you referring to? Please supply link. They could incur liability if they are publishing the load recipes that result in hi FPS numbers.
 

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I didnt say 1200 could not be achieved. I said it cannot be done within published SAMMI pressure limits.
Would guess 1200 fps with 220 at 40K psi

Which website are you referring to? Please supply link. They could incur liability if they are publishing the load recipes that result in hi FPS numbers.

Buffalo Bore is an ammunition manufacturer. They're well known for producing warm ammunition. I think this is the load simcoe was referring to: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219
 

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I didnt say 1200 could not be achieved. I said it cannot be done within published SAMMI pressure limits.
Would guess 1200 fps with 220 at 40K psi

Which website are you referring to? Please supply link. They could incur liability if they are publishing the load recipes that result in hi FPS numbers.


Buffalo Bore. Looked up 220gr cast loads for 10mm and that came up for one. Perhaps you should contact them and tell them (Buffalo Bore) that it can't be done within SAMMI specs and they are loading ammo that could cause them liability issues. But I'm guessing they probably already checked for that.

I also found that Underwood advertises their 220 gr. cast at 1200fps also.
 

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Don;t forget Double Tap Ammo.

I load 200gr XTP's with 9.6grs IMR800X = 1300fps in my Colt Delta Elite they do 1500fps in my 18" Contener barrel.
 

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Don;t forget Double Tap Ammo.

I load 200gr XTP's with 9.6grs IMR800X = 1300fps in my Colt Delta Elite they do 1500fps in my 18" Contener barrel.

That's pretty impressive numbers and should get just about anything done that need's gettin' done. I've read that 800X powder is the "king" of the 10mm velocity war.
 

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Why not? I'll throw my dunce cap in the ring...:rolleyes:
From what I've read, .357s tend to work best out of a 16in. barrel, reaching into the KE levels of lower energy .223 Remington loads. Of course, it's a heavier bullet, so it doesn't shoot as flatly, yada, yada...
Anyway, I forget a lot of what I've read about 10mm, but I think it might have higher muzzle energy which bleeds off faster, since it's heavier. I'd rather choose it for closer ranges if I need to kill quickly, but I'd rather choose .357 for general purpose. Gimme a moment and I'll look up people who have those pretty numbers on the screen.
 

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The 357 will normally shoot the same weight bullet faster than the 10mm. Neither of the rounds are sluggish or "super fast" but you can definitely take advantage of slower burning powders in the 357.
I don't own a carbine but my 6" Ruger will reach 1600 fps while retaining good accuracy with 140 grain bullets. This is a near maximum load but the cases fall out of the cylinder under their own weight.
The limiting factor for the 10mm is case capacity. You can't use H110 or the other slower powders due to the pressure constraints placed on the auto-loading characteristics of the guns. While the carbine length barrels will add to the velocity potential the 357 will probably be faster with the right load.
 

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Some chronograph results for a few of my most used 38/357 loads-

The .357 Magnum Carbine, Perfected | The Sixgun Journal

"After some research I settled on a maximum load of 19.0 grains of Winchester 296 using CCI Magnum small primers and the menagerie of nickel .357 cases in my brass pile. So it was time to see how much I’d lost by settling for the 16” barrel. I set up the BetaMaster and checked a few loads from the Rossi and Colt Lawman. Results were better than expected."

"The aforementioned XTP load generated 2000 fps, +/- 5 fps depending on the brand of case used. The Colt averaged 1240 fps with this load."

"Federal’s old 158 grain 357 jacketed softpoint averaged 1729 fps from the 16” Rossi and 1173 fps from the Colt."

"My dwindling stash of Alaska Backpacker 200 grain LBT’s produced 1430 fps."

"Remington’s 125 grain JHP averaged 2101 fps from the Rossi and 1418 fps from the Colt."

"My current cast bullet .38 load uses a Missouri Bullet 125 grain RNFP and 5.3 grains of HP38, with a CCI standard small pistol primer. The Rossi 92 averaged 1065 fps with this load and the old Lawman spits them out at 815 fps. They are essentially a 36 caliber version of the 22 LR. Recoil with these loads was barely noticeable end even the hottest loads were a cake-walk in the Model 92."
JWP is dead right on the advantages of bigger heavier bullets on meat and bone. My sig line on another forum-

The only thing muzzle energy ever killed was time that could have spent shooting meat and learning something about how bullets work.
 

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I don't accept that they are "ballistic twins" even in a handgun. I know there are some shooters who like the 10mm, I'm not one of them. You can't argue with the fact that it's a powerful round in a semi automatic, but I think it lacks the versatility of the 357mag.
I handload both 10mm and .357mag and he's correct that the .357mag is far more versatile being able to load 90grn mouse fart to 200grn powerhouses. However, the OP is asking for power comparison in carbines so it's not so much about versitility but about power increase in a longer barreled carbine.

First, for full power ammo in a 6" barreled semi-auto for the 10mm vs a 6" barreled revolver for the .357mag, it's the 10mm that's superior. I'll demonstrate by using my chrono data for both my hot 165grn 10mm and my equally hot 158grn .357mag handloads in 6" barreled handguns. Here is the chrono data that demonstrates it.
** Hot 158grn .357mag in a 6" S&W 686: 1,491fps producing 780ft/lbs of ME
** Hot 165grn 10mm in a 6" G20L: 1,589fps producing 925ft/lbs of ME

That's a larger, heavier 40 cal bullet traveling almost 100fps faster and producing 145ft/lbs more ME than the smaller, lighter .35 cal bullet. So the 10mm is clearly superior in a 6" pistol loaded with custom, full power handloads.

HOWEVER, the tables turn when comparing the same 2 cartridges in a carbine and even more so in a 20" and 24" levergun. That's in large part because the .357mag's larger case is filled with slower burning, magnum pistol powder while the small cased 10mm is filled with powder specifically optimized for use in short pistol barrels.

I ran my hot 10mm loads through a friend's 10mm carbine and got chrono'd velocity increase results very similar to those published by BBI in their tables. In all I was able to increase the velocity of my 165grn hot loads by 200fps out of a 16" barrel which was respectable as it gave me the following velocities:

** Hot 165grn 10mm in a 16", 10mm AR: 1,700fps producing 1,014ft/lbs of ME
(I don't have a 10mm platform with a 20" or longer barrel but based on BBI's tests, velocities out of a longer barrel would start to show a falloff as the length increased.)

I do have 2 Rossi leverguns though; a 20" carbine and a 24" rifle. Up until early last year I used H110 powder in my full power levergun loads but I switched to Lil'Gun and while it produces slightly less velocities in pistol length barrels, it generated significantly better performance in levergun length barrels. Using a full Hodgdon listed max charge for 158grn bullets of 16.7grns for H110 and 18.0grns for Lil'Gun, below are the chrono results in both leverguns.

** Hot 158grn .357mag using H110 powder in a 20" Rossi Carbine: 1,789fps producing 1,123ft/lbs of ME
** Hot 158grn .357mag using H110 powder in a 24" Rossi Rifle: 1,822fps producing 1,164ft/lbs of ME

** Hot 158grn .357mag using Lil'Gun powder in a 20" Rossi Carbine: 1,952fps producing 1,337ft/lbs of ME
** Hot 158grn .357mag using Lil'Gun powder in a 24" Rossi Rifle: 2,005fps producing 1,410ft/lbs of ME

So, while the hot, 165grn, 10mm produced 200fps increases over a 6" barrel pistol in a 16" carbine length barrel and then fell off in longer barreled rifles, the Hot Lil'Gun powered 158grn .357mag produced over 360fps increases in a 20" carbine and over 415fps increases in a 24" rifle. Therefore, the .357mag is clearly the better choice in a long barreled carbine or rifle over even the hottest 10mm.
 

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** Hot 158grn .357mag using H110 powder in a 20" Rossi Carbine: 1,789fps producing 1,123ft/lbs of ME
** Hot 158grn .357mag using H110 powder in a 24" Rossi Rifle: 1,822fps producing 1,164ft/lbs of ME

** Hot 158grn .357mag using Lil'Gun powder in a 20" Rossi Carbine: 1,952fps producing 1,337ft/lbs of ME
** Hot 158grn .357mag using Lil'Gun powder in a 24" Rossi Rifle: 2,005fps producing 1,410ft/lbs of ME
Interesting numbers, and Lil'Gun seems to be available.

As soon as the 8lb canister of W296 looks low :) But I think I'll throw in a lb on my next powder order.

From my 77/357, I get lots more velocity from W296, but my best accuracy is with 2400. It would be nice to get more zoom, with some accuracy thrown in. One never knows until they try.
 

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Lest we forget, Hi Point has an affordable 10mm carbine offering.
 
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