[broom_jm]

Finally had the weather warm up enough to let me get out and shoot the new gun. As the picture shows, it's a 445 Super Mag case, necked down to .357 caliber. Before you tell me how wimpy this is, keep in mind I'm only doing this because of the ridiculous cartridge restrictions Indiana puts on rifles that are legal for deer hunting. I didn't chronograph these loads yet because I wasn't sure how good the accuracy would be. As it turns out, I'm glad I didn't bother, because the closer to a max load I got, the worse the groups were! With the charge of 4227 I was using, there were no signs of pressure and Quickload thinks they would be safe, as well.

I want to try some H110, and Li'l Gun with these FTX bullets, then I want to try all three powders with the 180gr Hornady SSP bullet, if Midway ever has them in stock again.

Overall, I'm not satisfied with this round, yet but hopefully another powder/bullet combination will give better results.

 

[William Iorg]

Looks like a fun cartridge to me. I believe you are on the right track – headed for H110 W296 and H Lil Gun. I wager on Lil Gun for highest and most consistent velocities and smallest groups. I know there have been some reports of problems with Lil Gun but I have not seen them and I would certainly try it here.
What length barrel?

 

[broom_jm]

It's a 22" barrel on the H&R SB2 action. It started life as a .357 Magnum and the chamber was reamed out to fit the necked down 445SM case. Looking for velocity around 2100fps with the 200 grain bullet and maybe 2300fps with the 180 grain...I'll let you all know more when I get the chronograph out.

 

[MikeG]

Looks like a little rimmed .35 Rem. Well, that ought to be a good start.

 

[broom_jm]

Mike,

It's supposed to give .35 Remington performance in a case that is legal for places with 1-5/8" restrictions. I just hope I can get it to group better with a different combination.

 

[Davers]

Finally had the weather warm up enough to let me get out and shoot the new gun. As the picture shows, it's a 445 Super Mag case, necked down to .357 caliber. Before you tell me how wimpy this is, keep in mind I'm only doing this because of the ridiculous cartridge restrictions Indiana puts on rifles that are legal for deer hunting. I didn't chronograph these loads yet because I wasn't sure how good the accuracy would be. As it turns out, I'm glad I didn't bother, because the closer to a max load I got, the worse the groups were! With the charge of 4227 I was using, there were no signs of pressure and Quickload thinks they would be safe, as well.

I want to try some H110, and Li'l Gun with these FTX bullets, then I want to try all three powders with the 180gr Hornady SSP bullet, if Midway ever has them in stock again.

Overall, I'm not satisfied with this round, yet but hopefully another powder/bullet combination will give better results.

You'll need to do a lot of work inorder to work up an accurate load for your .358 GNR. What is the rate-of-twist of your rifle? It might be a bit slow to stabolize the 180 grainers. Personally I can't understand why the Deer Hunters in Indiana can't just stick to the traditional Pistol cartridges like the .357 Mag., .41 Mag., .44 Mag., or the .454 Casull for hunting Deer. Back to your .358 GNR; you might try using round nose cast bullets and see how these work. You state that Indiana has " ridiculous cartridge restrictions Indiana puts on rifles that are legal for deer hunting. Be aware that before 2007 you had to use shotgun slugs or M/L rifles for your long guns. I can't figure out why Indiana is allowing the use of .30-06's and other High Powered RIFLE cartridges in a pistol but NOT in a rifle??

 

[broom_jm]

You'll need to do a lot of work inorder to work up an accurate load for your .358 GNR. What is the rate-of-twist of your rifle? It might be a bit slow to stabolize the 180 grainers. Personally I can't understand why the Deer Hunters in Indiana can't just stick to the traditional Pistol cartridges like the .357 Mag., .41 Mag., .44 Mag., or the .454 Casull for hunting Deer. Back to your .358 GNR; you might try using round nose cast bullets and see how these work. You state that Indiana has " ridiculous cartridge restrictions Indiana puts on rifles that are legal for deer hunting. Be aware that before 2007 you had to use shotgun slugs or M/L rifles for your long guns. I can't figure out why Indiana is allowing the use of .30-06's and other High Powered RIFLE cartridges in a pistol but NOT in a rifle??

Dave,

I've lived here since '99, so I know all about the "bad ol' days" when you couldn't use any kind of center-fire rifle. The DNR guy I spoke to said the reason they don't legislate the powerful center-fire pistols is because so few people use them and those guys usually know what they're doing. Prior to the change to PCR regulations, I used my Contender chamberings or a ML, for deer. Growing up out West with a .270 and thinking of 150 yard shots as "close", it is really frustrating to be limited to the power and range of the traditional pistol cartridges, even when fired from a rifle. So, to help you understand, if you see a nice buck 200 yards out in a bean field, a .357, or even .454 Casull, just isn't an ethical choice for taking a shot at him. Even the best slug guns, with the stout recoil they deliver, is questionable at 200 yards. Yet, a 30/30 would be perfectly adequate, as well as just about any other center-fire rifle of .243 caliber, and up.

Living in Kentucky, you use the best option available to you, right? My guess is that's a real, honest-to-God rifle, not a pistol-chambered rifle that limits your range to around 125 yards? I have 5 or 6 powerful center-fire rifles that are quickly becoming safe queens and there really is no scientific justification for the entire state of Indiana being under these regulations. I could see it making sense in a few counties, but down south, there are large areas of rolling hills where the "danger" of a center-fire rifle bullet carrying off and hitting something is incredibly low. If you take a minute to understand how these regulations came into being (to restrict harvest, not for "safety"!) and how people hunt today (mostly from tree stands) the simple truth is the same as it ever was: Guns are no more dangerous or likely to cause an accident than the person using them. What absolutely kills me, is that the DNR actually has a good number of hunters in this state buying into the whole mess! More than a few "seasoned" hunters fought vigorously against the PCR regs!

(Sorry for the tirade...)

Back on point: I have been worried about this barrel stabilizing 200 grain bullets, but according to the reading I've done, 180gr shouldn't be a problem. I had this built with the 180gr Hornady SSP in mind, so when I can find some of those, I'll work up a load for them and (hopefully) have just what I was looking for; a gun that carries like a rifle and has 200+ yard range/power for deer hunting.

 

[338 Hammertyme]

358gnr

Something to think about.


BFG Design LLC http://www.bfgcartridges.com/index.html

2600fps+ with a 200 grain bullet is smoking.

Neal

 

[broom_jm]

338HT,

I looked into the 358 BFG and may still wind up having one built on a Savage action, but I already owned a .357Mag barrel on the H&R frame, so this project was much simpler and less expensive, even though it won't come close to the necked up 25WSSM round called (among other things) the 358 BFG. Without getting wildly inventive, I think the 358WSSM conversion is the most performance you can expect from a case length of 1.625" and a 35 caliber bullet.

Another factor for me was the ease with which cases are formed for the 358 GNR. All you do is run a 445SM case into the die and then load it up. No fire-forming, no trimming and the brass is close to the same cost.

 

[Davers]

Dave,

I've lived here since '99, so I know all about the "bad ol' days" when you couldn't use any kind of center-fire rifle. The DNR guy I spoke to said the reason they don't legislate the powerful center-fire pistols is because so few people use them and those guys usually know what they're doing. Prior to the change to PCR regulations, I used my Contender chamberings or a ML, for deer. Growing up out West with a .270 and thinking of 150 yard shots as "close", it is really frustrating to be limited to the power and range of the traditional pistol cartridges, even when fired from a rifle.

Yes, I remembering having to use "Foster" type shotgun slugs for Deer with their 6" group @ 100 yards even with a scope. When the sabot slugs came on the market with actual "Riflied" barrels, this improved the accuracy many time over. As it stands the saboted ammo is just as effective as your traditional Pistol cartridges, but the pistol cartridges are much-much cheaper when comparing the costs of sabot slug loads @ some $15 per five shells. For this reason I wrote the IDNR back in 1987 stating that the ballistics of modern saboted shotgun ammo is no more safe or dangerous than Pistol cartridge loads which are in the same ballistic group. Indiana is too highly populated with people to allow the use of High Powered cartridges like the .30-06 or even the .30-30. I seriously doubt if they will ever allow HP rifles for hunting Deer in the "Hoosier" state. In your hunting of Deer, in Indiana, you need to set your hunting stand closer to the action instead of 150 yards. When I moved to Ky back in 2008, my Ruger Model 77/44 or even my 20 gauge Browning Slug gun has seen no action and more or less hang on the wall. Here I can use my .270 or my .308 for Deer as these are legal in a long gun here in Ky. So I know about your frustration with not being able to shoot at a Deer over 75 yards, but actually that is the average range I shoot my Deer here in Ky.


So, to help you understand, if you see a nice buck 200 yards out in a bean field, a .357, or even .454 Casull, just isn't an ethical choice for taking a shot at him. Even the best slug guns, with the stout recoil they deliver, is questionable at 200 yards. Yet, a 30/30 would be perfectly adequate, as well as just about any other center-fire rifle of .243 caliber, and up.

Yes, a .243 or even a .30-30 would be fine for over 100 to 200 yard hunting, but again the state of Indiana is too crowded & flat. Again get use to hunting at ranges of < 100 yards.

Living in Kentucky, you use the best option available to you, right? My guess is that's a real, honest-to-God rifle, not a pistol-chambered rifle that limits your range to around 125 yards? I have 5 or 6 powerful center-fire rifles that are quickly becoming safe queens and there really is no scientific justification for the entire state of Indiana being under these regulations. I could see it making sense in a few counties, but down south, there are large areas of rolling hills where the "danger" of a center-fire rifle bullet carrying off and hitting something is incredibly low. If you take a minute to understand how these regulations came into being (to restrict harvest, not for "safety"!) and how people hunt today (mostly from tree stands) the simple truth is the same as it ever was: Guns are no more dangerous or likely to cause an accident than the person using them. What absolutely kills me, is that the DNR actually has a good number of hunters in this state buying into the whole mess! More than a few "seasoned" hunters fought vigorously against the PCR regs!


Again, I know your concerns but if you want to use a true rifle for hunting big game like Deer then you'll have to move to a state that allows it. Several Hoosier Hunters have given up on their shotguns and have started using PCR for their huntinng and seem to be satisfied with them. The .44 Magnum seems to be the most popular up there.


(Sorry for the tirade...)

No Problem!​

Back on point: I have been worried about this barrel stabilizing 200 grain bullets, but according to the reading I've done, 180gr shouldn't be a problem. I had this built with the 180gr Hornady SSP in mind, so when I can find some of those, I'll work up a load for them and (hopefully) have just what I was looking for; a gun that carries like a rifle and has 200+ yard range/power for deer hunting.


I really don't think your choice of cartridges is going to be a good 200 yard + Deer load. There are a few who have used another cartridge called the .358 WSSM with good success, but the State might ban this cartridge, if accidents occure due to someone shooting too far and missing, hitting a home. I suggest staying with either a rifled shotgun or the regular Pistol Cartridges and not spend time with some of these wildcat cartridges.

 

[broom_jm]

Dave,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my points. We will have to agree to disagree on your assertion that Indiana is too populated to allow powerful center-fire rifles. To be blunt, I think that is a bunch of hogwash and I think you've been drinking the Kool Aid! The cold, unadorned truth is that Indiana implemented their laws to ensure their recovering deer herd did not get over-harvested. The entire southern half of the state is rolling hills and the vast majority of the state is no more populated than many places which allow you to hunt deer with a real rifle. Buying into the notion of these regulations making hunting safer is absurd and honestly...furthers an anti-hunting agenda.

Many more people hunt coyote in Indiana with center-fire rifles like the .223, .243 and 25/06, than hunt deer with a 358WSSM, or cartridge of similar performance. And yet, nobody is getting shot with these guns. How can this be when you say Indiana is too populated and those guns just shoot too far? Could it be that hunters (gasp!) are being responsible and making sure of their back-drop, before shooting?

You don't "think" my choice is going to be good for 200 yards or more on deer. Fortunately, I've done the math and know that it will, once I find an accurate load for it, and have no doubt that I will. The 358 WSSM cartridges have been in use for 3 years now (see the thread on these pages) and I do not believe for a minute that the state of Indiana is going to amend their regulations over them. Why would they when there are many pistols being used that match or exceed the performance of the 358 WSSM wildcats? (I use the 6.5JDJ and 7-30 Waters from a 14" Contender and both of them have the range to take deer at 250 yards.)

There are very few, if ANY, shooting "accidents", my friend...only acts of negligence. To suggest... no, to CONCLUDE... that the capability of the cartridge is what determines whether or not it will be used safely, is lunacy. You go back over the long history of deaths in the shooting sports and you will find that the range of the firearm used to make the catastrophic mistake is almost never a deciding factor. The science says, that dog just won't hunt.

I suggest you worry more about understanding how this all really fits together and less about what other people choose to do, when faced with ridiculous legislation.

 

[Davers]

Dave,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my points. We will have to agree to disagree on your assertion that Indiana is too populated to allow powerful center-fire rifles. To be blunt, I think that is a bunch of hogwash and I think you've been drinking the Kool Aid! The cold, unadorned truth is that Indiana implemented their laws to ensure their recovering deer herd did not get over-harvested. The entire southern half of the state is rolling hills and the vast majority of the state is no more populated than many places which allow you to hunt deer with a real rifle. Buying into the notion of these regulations making hunting safer is absurd and honestly...furthers an anti-hunting agenda.


Think what ever you want. Also I don't appreciate being called a "Kool Aid Drinker"!!! Look, Indiana is too highly populated and it is dangerous to use HP rifles. Also Indiana is becomming more anti-hunting than in the past several years when I lived there.


Many more people hunt coyote in Indiana with center-fire rifles like the .223, .243 and 25/06, than hunt deer with a 358WSSM, or cartridge of similar performance. And yet, nobody is getting shot with these guns. How can this be when you say Indiana is too populated and those guns just shoot too far? Could it be that hunters (gasp!) are being responsible and making sure of their back-drop, before shooting?

There are far less coyote or woodchuck Hunters than Deer Hunters.


You don't "think" my choice is going to be good for 200 yards or more on deer. Fortunately, I've done the math and know that it will, once I find an accurate load for it, and have no doubt that I will.

I don't think so. You would have to go to atleasst a .243 to consider it a 150 + yard gun.


There are very few, if ANY, shooting "accidents", my friend...only acts of negligence. To suggest... no, to CONCLUDE... that the capability of the cartridge is what determines whether or not it will be used safely, is lunacy. You go back over the long history of deaths in the shooting sports and you will find that the range of the firearm used to make the catastrophic mistake is almost never a deciding factor. The science says, that dog just won't hunt.

Being a careful Hunter, knowing your weapon is the key to avoiding accidents.

I suggest you worry more about understanding how this all really fits together and less about what other people choose to do, when faced with ridiculous legislation.


I have no worries & you will just have to live and accept lawful regulations regarding equipment use.

 

[broom_jm]

I ordered some 180gr Hornady SSP bullets for the 358GNR and will report on their performance after they arrive and I work up a load for them. Thank you to those of you who have shown interest, and not ignorance, in this post.

 

[MikeG]

To say that the state is too populated to use a .30-30 rifle and then allow a .300 Win Mag in a "handgun" is complete hypocrisy. Sorry but that's the way I see it. Either the combination is safe or it's not (and you have a safe backstop, or frankly shouldn't take the shot). If it's the hunter that makes the difference, then a proficiency test could be administered. As buying an Encore in a belted magnum takes dollars, not skill, the assumption that the user couldn't make an error is a stretch.

There was a writeup in the American Hunter, I think showing evidence that a shotgun slug can travel just as far as a rifle, on a ricochet. That it's even possible to consider shows that "shotgun only" rules are misguided and likely ineffective, if well meaning.

 

[Davers]

To say that the state is too populated to use a .30-30 rifle and then allow a .300 Win Mag in a "handgun" is complete hypocrisy. Sorry but that's the way I see it. Either the combination is safe or it's not (and you have a safe backstop, or frankly shouldn't take the shot). If it's the hunter that makes the difference, then a proficiency test could be administered. As buying an Encore in a belted magnum takes dollars, not skill, the assumption that the user couldn't make an error is a stretch.

There was a writeup in the American Hunter, I think showing evidence that a shotgun slug can travel just as far as a rifle, on a ricochet. That it's even possible to consider shows that "shotgun only" rules are misguided and likely ineffective, if well meaning.

You are correct, Mike, inthat it is doesn't make sense to allow H.P. rifle cartridges in a pistol & not in a long gun in the State of Indiana. I really don't think pistols firing RIFLE cartridges should be allowed in any state that has the population density like there is in Indiana. The ONLY reason they allow it is based on the fact that there is very few users of pistols firing HP rifle cartridges, for Deer Hunting. Also the modern sabot shot gun slug fired from rifle barrels travel further than the old Foster Style slugs. I beleive this is what they were refering to in the American Hunter article. When I read posts concerning these "Fat" wildcat cartridges being necked down or up to .358 cal. what this amounts to is they are taking a regular length cartridge and "squashing" them down making them legal length in Indiana. What is produced is a short cartridge that has the same volume as a regular size cartridge. The IDNR should regard this fact and base laws on volume of powder not cartridge length. I can't understand why some want to use a "Bottle Necked" cartridge and can't be happy with using a .44 Magnum or other pistol cartridge in a rifle that is adequate for Deer sized game. Seem liike there are some who go looking for "loopholes" in a law. It was posted earlier that: It's supposed to give .35 Remington performance in a case that is legal for places with 1-5/8" restrictions. which sounds very much like a loophole around the Laws governing the legal cartridges for hunting Deer in Indiana.

 

[broom_jm]

To combat conjecture and hyperbole with raw data, I present the following two tables to illustrate how a 35 Remington does not have significantly more range than a 454 Casull. Unsafe firing practices with either could result in injury or death to another. As the ballistics tables show, the maximum range of these two cartridges is comparable, showing quite clearly that either gun, fired at a 30 degree angle, or higher, will result in a long-range, potentially lethal shot.

Exercising good judgment and fire control is absolutely required to prevent a dangerous situation with any firearm. Failure to do so with either of these two cartridges could have the same catastrophic result, as their range and trajectory are, for the purposes of this argument, virtually identical.

454 Casull

Name: .452 Cal, Hornady XTP, 300 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.180
Bullet Weight: 300
Velocity: 1650
Target Distance: 150
Scope Height: 1.500


Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1650 fps 1813 fpe
25 yds 1.34 in 1563 fps 1627 fpe
50 yds 3.30 in 1479 fps 1458 fpe
75 yds 4.26 in 1402 fps 1308 fpe
100 yds 4.10 in 1330 fps 1178 fpe
125 yds 2.73 in 1264 fps 1063 fpe
150 yds 0.00 in 1204 fps 965 fpe
175 yds -4.24 in 1151 fps 883 fpe
200 yds -10.11 in 1106 fps 815 fpe
225 yds -17.75 in 1067 fps 758 fpe
250 yds -27.27 in 1033 fps 711 fpe

35 Remington

Name: .358 Cal, Hornady FTX, 200 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.300
Bullet Weight: 200
Velocity: 2100
Target Distance: 175
Scope Height: 1.500


Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 2100 fps 1958 fpe
25 yds 0.47 in 2037 fps 1843 fpe
50 yds 1.91 in 1976 fps 1733 fpe
75 yds 2.83 in 1915 fps 1628 fpe
100 yds 3.14 in 1856 fps 1529 fpe
125 yds 2.80 in 1798 fps 1435 fpe
150 yds 1.76 in 1742 fps 1347 fpe
175 yds 0.00 in 1687 fps 1263 fpe
200 yds -2.52 in 1633 fps 1184 fpe
225 yds -5.82 in 1581 fps 1110 fpe
250 yds -9.93 in 1530 fps 1039 fpe

 

[Davers]

To combat conjecture and hyperbole with raw data, I present the following two tables to illustrate how a 35 Remington does not have significantly more range than a 454 Casull. Their range and trajectory are, for the purposes of this argument, virtually identical.454 Casull

Name: .452 Cal, Hornady XTP, 300 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.180
Bullet Weight: 300
Velocity: 1650
Target Distance: 150
Scope Height: 1.500


Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 1650 fps 1813 fpe
25 yds 1.34 in 1563 fps 1627 fpe
50 yds 3.30 in 1479 fps 1458 fpe
75 yds 4.26 in 1402 fps 1308 fpe
100 yds 4.10 in 1330 fps 1178 fpe
125 yds 2.73 in 1264 fps 1063 fpe
150 yds 0.00 in 1204 fps 965 fpe
175 yds -4.24 in 1151 fps 883 fpe
200 yds -10.11 in 1106 fps 815 fpe
225 yds -17.75 in 1067 fps 758 fpe
250 yds -27.27 in 1033 fps 711 fpe

35 Remington

Name: .358 Cal, Hornady FTX, 200 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.300
Bullet Weight: 200
Velocity: 2100
Target Distance: 175
Scope Height: 1.500


Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy
0 yds -1.50 in 2100 fps 1958 fpe
25 yds 0.47 in 2037 fps 1843 fpe
50 yds 1.91 in 1976 fps 1733 fpe
75 yds 2.83 in 1915 fps 1628 fpe
100 yds 3.14 in 1856 fps 1529 fpe
125 yds 2.80 in 1798 fps 1435 fpe
150 yds 1.76 in 1742 fps 1347 fpe
175 yds 0.00 in 1687 fps 1263 fpe
200 yds -2.52 in 1633 fps 1184 fpe
225 yds -5.82 in 1581 fps 1110 fpe
250 yds -9.93 in 1530 fps 1039 fpe

Why not just go ahead and use a .454 Casull???? It's legal in Indiana, as a rifle cartridge, while the .35 Remington isn't.

 

[broom_jm]

As I update this thread with further information I hope to illustrate how effective the 358GNR can be, without the cost, extreme pressure, or recoil of even the best PCR cartridges available. Personally, I think the classic 35 Remington is a great deer cartridge and if I can approach that performance while not breaking any laws, I will be pleased with the end result, despite the efforts of some naysayer. Why some people can't be considerate and remain open-minded to the efforts of others I'll never understand, but I guess it's easier to find fault than take the time to understand something beyond their realm of experience.

 

[Davers]

broom_jm, I've been studing your wildcat .358 GNR to see if I can find an accurate load for your rifle. You mentioned that you had your .357 rifle rechamberd to the larger .358 GNR which means the rate-of-twist, of your rifle, is 1-in-14" I believe if you had a 1-in-12" OR even a 1-in-10" twist your accuracy would be much better with 180 to 200 grain bullets. Also H-110, WW-296, & IMR-4227 should work okay. I looked up the loads for the .445 Super Mag. and it said that Accurate 1680 is the best powder for this cartridge. So you might consider this type powder too along with getting another barrel with a 1-in-12" or 10" twist. <Good Luck!>

 

[broom_jm]

Davers,

Thanks for the input and I'm sure you're on the right track. I checked with H&R and the rate of twist on their 357 Mag rifle is 1:14, but they are saying that should stabilize the 180's well, and maybe the 200's, depending on the velocity. I've fired three groups of the Hornady 180gr SSP's, over 28-29gr of IMR-4198 and the accuracy is better. Perhaps more importantly, the accuracy is improving as I go up in charge weight, which is more typical of the results I'm used to seeing. The max charge for this is 31gr, so as I inch up toward that, I'm hoping to find a level of accuracy I'm happy with.

QL is showing a better load density with slightly slower powders than the one you mentioned, but W296 does show good peak pressure/velocity, so I might give that a try. The tricky thing here is realizing the different demands of the parent case (445SM) being shot from 6" - 10" barrels, and the wildcat round, out of a 22" barrel. I'll post a new picture on this thread later today, after I've fired 2 or 3 more groups.