[rbenavidez0120]

This is my first try at this. I have a 38 Military and Police Special S & W. I also have a S & W 38 Special with a serial number of 6 digits starting out with 63 but I can't find a name or model number on it, and I have an Interarms, 38 Special Rossi made in Alexandria VA. As near as I can tell it has M53 ingraved on it. Does anyone know if it is safe to fire Plus P ammo in any of these handguns? Thank-you for any help or advise you can give me. Bob.

 

[andy]

Smith and Wesson says that any model marked steel K frame and any N Frame 38 special are safe with +P. This is a much debated subject, in fact, this same subject is being debated a few posts below this one. I have no idea about the Rossi.

Andy

P.S. welcome to the forum!!

 

[jwp475]

I shoot Federal 147 grain Hydra Shoks with the +P+ in my J-frames.

 

[Combat Diver]

I concur with Andy and welcome to the site.

CD

 

[Cheezywan]

I've never been very fond of any +p ammo . Prefered to down-grade to a magnum revolver instead when forced to use it.

38 special works fine at near 800-900 fps. Not worth the risk in my view. Not enough gain to make it worth it.

Cheezywan

 

[Ron James]

A little more information on what you have would help. You say your second gun is a 38 S&W Special with a six digit serial number starting with 63 { I can not understand the fear of putting down the entire serial number , yes I've heard all the old arguments }, That falls with in the range of the Military and Police also { about a guess of 1940 ), why wouldn't it be a M&P also? You are getting the serial number from the bottom of the grip? A little more information on exactly what guns you have is needed before any valid answer can be given. Sorry about that but your information is way too vague

 

[unclenick]

There is a sticky I put in the Trading Post forum about the security issue with giving out whole serial numbers. Like most things related to criminal activity, it doesn't need to be understood. We just have to accept that scammers do all sorts of things the rest of us consider irrational and that the trouble they go to often exceeds what would be required to earn a similar amount at a normal job. I think, for some of them, its an ego trip just to prove they put something over on you; kind of like computer virus authors that way. In any event, just leaving the last three digits as X's is good enough to minimize false theft reporting, and provides enough to work out what the model is in most instances.

SAAMI spec for standard .38 Special is 17,000 psi, and 18,500 psi for +P. +P+ is not a SAAMI standard and can vary by manufacturer, but I understand it is generally around 22,000 psi. It is interesting to note the European CIP uses 150 MPa, or 21,756 psi for all .38 Specials and has no + ratings of any kind. That suggests the current SAAMI ratings are anemic, but YMMV.

 

[jaguarxk120]

The rating +P+ is 15% over the +P rating (approximately 23,500 psi), not a area I would want to go into. Since the +P+ rating is outside of SAAMI standards you take your chances using it in older guns. Do what Cheezywan said down grade to a magnum.

 

[Ron James]

There is a sticky I put in the Trading Post forum about the security issue with giving out whole serial numbers. Like most things related to criminal activity, it doesn't need to be understood. You just have to accept that scammers do all sorts of things the rest of us consider irrational and that the trouble they go to often exceeds what would be required to earn a similar amount at a normal job. I think, for some of them, its an ego trip just to prove they put something over on you; kind of like computer virus authors that way. In any event, just leaving the last three digits as X's is good enough to minimize false theft reporting, and provides enough to work out what the model is in most instances.

SAAMI spec for standard .38 Special is 17,000 psi, and 18,500 psi for +P. +P+ is not a SAAMI standard and can vary by manufacturer, but I understand it is generally around 22,000 psi. It is interesting to note the European CIP uses 150 MPa, or 21,756 psi for all .38 Specials and has no + ratings of any kind. That suggests the current SAAMI ratings are anemic, but YMMV.

You're right, I don't need to under stand, your forum. I did think that with 70 years of reloading, building, working on, collecting,and researching firearms I could contribute something to the forum but I've been wrong before. Now before I fold my tent and steal away into the night, I would suggest that before everyone keeps recommending what the poster can or cannot shoot in his revolvers, that they find out exactly what the two Smith and Wesson are. With the information given one of them may not even be a S&W but rather a Spanish copy. "Assuming" anything could be harmful and spoil someones day. Vaya con Dios, and may the force be with you, I'm gone.

 

[andy]

Perhaps Ron has a point and we should help you identify the guns. From what I understand, you have two Smith and Wesson 38 Special handguns. Your Military and Police should look approximately like this one (my wife's).

Open the Cylinder and look inside the crane for a model number.

If it is a "model marked" Smith and Wesson (for example Mod 67 or 10-6) then it is safe to fire with 38 Spl +P. If there is only an assembly number, then Smith and Wesson advises not to fire +P in the revolver.
The serial number is found on the end of the butt.
If there is no model number under the crane, then the number inside the crane is an assembly number, not the serial number.

I still can't help with the Rossi, tho.

Andy

 

[unclenick]

I did think that with 70 years of reloading, building, working on, collecting,and researching firearms I could contribute something to the forum. . .

Absolutely you can. And there is no rule against posting full serial numbers or anything like that. My comment was only because, as with most things shooting related, I figure it is better to recommend erring on the side of mitigating risk rather than on the side of taking it. As I said, I don't understand why criminal mischief is appealing to anybody, but the news suggests it is for some. I don't understand half of what politicians get up to, either, but I seem to be stuck living with it.

The rating +P+ is 15% over the +P rating. . .

I wish it were that simple, but as I mentioned, there is no SAAMI standard for +P+, so there is no standard pressure multiplier. I expect some of the makers of warm commercial loads push it higher than others. I've read in several places that there is a sort of unwritten industry agreement for .38 Special only, that +P+ not exceed 30% over the SAAMI standard MAP for the cartridge. 1.3 × 17,000 psi = 22,100 psi, and following the SAAMI practice of rounding MAPs to the nearest 500 psi, that becomes 22,000 psi, but that's not binding on anyone. For 9 mm only, the unwritten agreement seems to be 20% above SAAMI's standard MAP, or 35,000 × 1.2 = 42,000 psi, close to the NATO maximum mid-case pressure of 43,000 psi for 9 mm ball for modified M3 submachineguns, IIRC (but which is not approved for the M9 pistol).

One poster on another forum who's shot a lot of +P+ 9 mm says the label can also be meaningless, pointing out Federal 124 grain Hydrashok +P+ produces lower velocity from his guns than a Winchester 124 grain +P load does. So, it's a label a maker can put on the case, but doesn't necessarily tell you a lot, other than light guns may not like it much.

This table at Father Frog's pad sums it up pretty well: http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm#+P


Andy,

The contrast in your picture didn't show the number well, so I took the liberty of highlighting. Hope you don't mind.

 

[andy]

The contrast in your picture didn't show the number well, so I took the liberty of highlighting. Hope you don't mind.

I don't mind at all, and if you think the pic of my wife's M&P didn't show too well, you should have seen the pic I tried to take of my Mod. 67, nothing but glare.

Andy

 

[Ralph McLaney]

Correction:

There is a sticky I put in the Trading Post forum about the security issue with giving out whole serial numbers. Like most things related to criminal activity, it doesn't need to be understood. You just have to accept that scammers do all sorts of things the rest of us consider irrational and that the trouble they go to often exceeds what would be required to earn a similar amount at a normal job. I think, for some of them, its an ego trip just to prove they put something over on you; kind of like computer virus authors that way. In any event, just leaving the last three digits as X's is good enough to minimize false theft reporting, and provides enough to work out what the model is in most instances.

SAAMI spec for standard .38 Special is 17,000 psi, and 18,500 psi for +P. +P+ is not a SAAMI standard and can vary by manufacturer, but I understand it is generally around 22,000 psi. It is interesting to note the European CIP uses 150 MPa, or 21,756 psi for all .38 Specials and has no + ratings of any kind. That suggests the current SAAMI ratings are anemic, but YMMV.

Just for the record:
SAAMI Spec for the +P .38 Special has been raised to 20,000psi.

 

[unclenick]

Ralph,

I thought it was a matter of unit confusion, like the idea that .308 Win and 7.62 NATO pressures were substantially different. As you likely know, copper crushers trend toward reading too low above about 25-30,000 psi, and too high when you get much below that. The only lists of SAAMI specs I have show +P being 18,500 psi and 20,000 cup. Actually the same pressure.

The last time I talked to SAAMI Technical Director, Ken Green (about two years ago), he indicated SAAMI was in the process of updating a lot of documentation. He was thinking it would take five years or so, but that all their published materials would be updated by that time. I've put off buying their $90 disc of standards and drawings for that reason, but maybe that's a mistake? I'll have to drop them a line about the status of the redux, and see if I can get some clarification on this .38 Special standard while I'm at it? It appears to me for both .38 Special +P and 9 mm +P that the spec is MAP+10%, rounded down (never up) to the nearest 500 psi.


Ron James,

I was just rereading the post three back and concluded that if I'd started the second sentence with "We" instead of "You", it would have been clearer I was referring to the general case and not to you specifically. No offense intended. I went back and edited that.

 

[Ralph McLaney]

38SPL+P per SAAMI

From my 2004 Post: Will the Real .38+P Please Stand Up:

===============================================

I decided to call Ken Green at SAAMI for the scoop on this +P data discrepancy. I learned that the .38Spl. +P standard had indeed been changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. The confusion apparently arose because the change occured after the publication of the current ANSI standards manual in 1993. I then sent an e-mail to Accurate Arms and Alliant to let them know what I had learned. Looks like some +P data will need to be updated.

Ken Green also pointed out that the current SAAMI MAP pressure for the .38 Spl. +P is 20,000 psi or 20,000 cup. That while the two systems often give different values in this case they read the same.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11047&highlight=%22will+real+.38+stand

 

[William Iorg]

If your revolver is not suited to +P loading you might consider loading heavy for the caliber bullets. I shoot the NEI 190-grain bullet which is similar to Marshals LBT bullet and the Lyman 358430, the 190-grain “Super Police“bullet. You might be surprised how well the penetrate when launched with 3.1 to 3.3 grains of Alliant Bullseye or even 3.5 grains of Alliant Unique. The maximum loads give about 650 fps from my 3" barrel J=frame.