410 Slugs?

If you go to The Cast Bullet Association Inc. Forum Ed Harris there can give you all the info you want to know about cast slugs for 410 he had explain it all to me and also if your gun is full choke.As for the other things you where talking about shooting with the 410 i say you can up to the quail and rabbit .You can use 00 buck on some others . but need to be close to shoot them like coyote and fox.I use the 410 also and it s a fun gun to use but it have its limits. for the small game to shoot it is cheaper to shoot.Also to reload because I reload 410,20,12,10 also rifle and handgun beside do some muzzle loading also.I also cast my own bullets to.If you do reload for 410 I use 2400 powder in my and works great and use it for other cartriages also. I know alliant dose have 410 powder just for 410 but have not use it .Also Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products have every thing about shotgun reloading and supplies.

Hello Revolver:
First off let me cuss you for even bringin up the 410 slug reloading.
I have been for a long long time been lookin testing assembling combonations for the 410 slug myself.

I have seen where others have sucessfully shot a 385 gr cast slug BUT IT WASNT IN OUR NORMAL 410 SHOTGUN BUT RATHER IN A SPECIAL 500 DOLLAR PLUS BARREL FOR AN ENCORE OR TC.
So its not safe in todays modern guns we are more than likely refering to here.

Ok that said i too have done some UNPROFESIONAL TESTING MYSELF and ran into some interesting facts that all should be aware of and check out with there loadings ect.
Ok ill post the factory specs of the 410 shotgun for a non back bored chamber but will also inform you that if you have a back bored chamber the choke specs again change but bigger change not smaller so if anyone wanted to use this info they can as ill be talking about a older style H&R Topper Model 158 with a 410 full choke NON BACK BORED CHAMBER and it has tighter tolerances so a back bored chamber would be ok just a tad more sloppy per the tighter choke of a NON back Bored Chamber.
Ok i wouldnt at this point worry about if you had a bored or non bored chamber as really the ACTUAL CHOKES DIAMETER MEASURED WILL BE THE IMPORTANT ITEM HERE.

Ok the link posted below shows bored and non bored chamber specs for all shotgun gauges so others could follow this post and use the other specs as a quide.
When you click on the link take notice of the non back bored chamber specs for a 410 modified and the 410 full and the 410 extra full choke measurements.

Ok now heres an issue everyone needs to know if reloading the 410 with slugs.
I have in my possesion a H&R 410 barrel marked modified choke which should measure .402 diameter but IT IN FACT MEASURES .390 WHICH IS EXTRA FULL.

So check your chokes to be sure as we are now loading a solid slug which WILL NOT flow through a choke sorta like fluid as shot can move rearward ect to pass through a choke much easier than a solid slug can.

So now we can load per the chokes tolerance for a safer load knowing the choke being involved now.

Ok the link i promised.

http://www.colonialarms.com/pdf-files/page7.pdf

Sorry members daughters after me bout going somewhere but ill be back and edit this post with more info that should help .

Head Shot

Ok im back the girls here wanted to go to the flea markets at the lakes and boy im glad i did.
Found a 7ft fishin rod for 5 bucks and got a box of 50ct 38 super auto remington factory loads for 10 dollars and berkley strike walleye fish attractant for 1 dollar so im happy.

Alright so lets pickup where i left off.
I disassembled a factory 2.5 inch remington deer slug and heres the info on the slug i found.
The slug weighed 96.4 grains and measured .480 inches long and was exaclty .400 inches in diameter. (Remington lists it on the 410 slug box as 1/5 ounce)
The remington slug is soft lead and is the forester slug design with hollow base to the nose almost and does have the rifling on it.
Now if anyone here knows what the federal 1 ounce slug looks like being hollow base that federal called the F127 load then you know what the remington 410 slug looks like just in 410 size = cute little rascal ill tell you that.
Next under that slug was shot buffering that filled the base of the slug down to the wadding and the buffering weighed 16.5 grains as an amount.
Any one here seen or used the BPI shot buffering will know what it looks like for the buffering.
Then the card bd wad disc was measuring at .402 inch diameter and .147 inches thick.
This card was not the flet type wad but actualy a cery hard card bd card that is many times called the nitro card.
Under that was the UNKNOWN POWDER TYPE that weighed 12.8 grains.
Powder was flake design and is a bit larger in size and lighter gray colored than unique as an example - So unique was black colored and smaller than the UNKNOWN light gray and larger flake
powder chg found in the rem factory load.
POINT BEING I DONT KNOW WHAT THE ACTUAL POWDER IS IN THE REM SLUG LOADING.
Overall length of the factory roll crimped 410 2.5 inch slug load measures 2.275 inches long roll crimped and unfired which after firing the roll crimp would now be most likely around 2.5 inches but didnt measure a fired case.
Ok so i figured this much info to most likely be safe to use in attempting to load a safe round for measurement specs per the slug and case length.
Keep in mind that the .400 soft lead foster style rem slug would smush down safely through a fixed choke per being thin wall hollow and soft where as a coppr pistol or even rifle slug WILL NOT AND THIS APPLIES TO CAST SOLID SLUGS AS WELL.
Dont need anyone blowing up guns gettin hurt ect. SO read that line again and make it stick in the grey matter in yer skull.
Now some here might want to avoid using the plastic type granulated buffering and it might be possible but consider these benefits first.
The buffering in rems factory load being what it is actualy would not only make any safe powder chg fit without trying to add cards which will just add to chamber pressures possibly going into outer orbit by stacking up say 1 inch of hard cards which i dont even have to try it to know your askin for troubles and your gonna get it in flesh and blood injuries SO DONT GET TOO CRAZY WITH USING CARDS TO TAKE UP THE EXTRA ROOM.
If you dont have buffering use cotton balls stuffed in place of it then.
Well the slug info comes into the recipe .
I used the normal remington 410 shotcup youd normaly use for lead shot rem SP410 wad but i cut the wad petals all the way to the bottom of the shot cup but not through into the powder piston cup on the wads bottom if it isnt already.
Rem wads i believe were already slit all the way but winchester 410 wads needed cut as i recall.
The reason is you do want the shot cup wad to act as a sabot for the slug and if the slug fits into the wad tightly and not slit all the way then the wad wont fall off soon enough and itll screw with the accuracy so slit them and let the wind catch the wad petals and pull the wad off the slug for best accuracy.
The slug that fits inside the 410 shotcup wad should measure .313 diameter and be 100 grains max or no less than 84 grains in wt.
Now you people casting your own slugs can get any of the following lyman molds and cast your own 410 slugs.
Lyman mold number 31355 makes a 85 grain round nose.
Lyman mold number 31357 makes a 100 grain flat point nose slug.
Lyman mold number 313226 makes a 93 grain round nose and in my opinion the second best slug for above due to the slugs longer diameter and not tapering off so fast .
Lyman mold number 313249 makes a 84 grain round nose slug and in my opinion would be third but still acceptable option .
Lyman mold number 313445 makes a 95 grain wad cutter but still a domed flat point that is in my opinion number one per slug design that would match up close in rems slug length ideas.
Now im going to tell you how i came to making a decision on the powder type and chg.
I chose Winchesterrs ww296 powder.
BUT WW296 POWDER CAN BE TOUCHY ON LOADING PER CRIMP TIGHTNESS AND LOOSENESS OF POWDER IF NOT WADDED CORECTLY WITH ENOUGH COMPRESSED LOAD PRESSURE ON THE LOADING AFTER ROLL CRIMPED AND CAN BE A REAL PROBLEM BOTH SQUIB LOADS AND DANGEROUS OVER PRESSURES BOTH .
However properly loaded ww296 per my books and computer load balistics program says ww296 will give me best speed versus lower lead unit pressure in the barrel upon firing thus increasing the safety factor of the loading.
So if you look in your reloading book at the 410 1/2 ounce powder chg and wad used youd see the chg i went with.
Now 1/2 ounce is equal to right at 215 to 220 grains and im loading under half that weight in a cast slug or copper jacketed slug of 100gr down to 84 gr so pay load will not be near the half ounce load for the power chg you decide to use per your reloading books info.
OK HERES WHAT YOUR PROBABLY WAITING FOR + THE LOAD BUT FIRST THE DISCLAIMER>
YOU READ RESEARCH ALL THIS INFO AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF IF ITS SAFE PER YOUR MIND AS IM NOT A PROFESSIONAL BY ANY MEANS ON THE LOAD .
Just that i load it and works for me in my guns choke.
Im doing the plastic wad sabot type loading to be able to fire the load through any 410 choke up to the normal full choke diameter measured of .395 inches diameter to ensure safe slug pass through without the exposure of bursting a barrel due to choke restrictions but still be adeqaute for a modified choke even though a tad looser fit but youll still have a barrel if its a full choke.
Now i havent mentioned that i have and lyman makes them a .410 roll crimper that you simply put in a drill i use a drill press that will roll a 410 case down just like the factory rolled crimps.
They work great and the secret is warm up the roll crimp just a bit with a flame as after warming the steel crimper it softens the plastic case and really does a nice n neat roll crimp.
Or very slowly roll your first 3 cases very slowly and let the crimper heat up from friction on the case works good too.
Look on ebay and search 12ga 20ga 16ga 410 Lyman roll crimpers and you should find one id think so you know what it looks like or google search lymam roll crimper but be aware there was a clamp on the bench hand crank style thats usualy pretty high priced that DOES NOT WORK WELL WITH PLASTIC CASES AS IT WAS MADE FOR WAXED PAPER CASES WITH A SHOT CARD.
The drill style crimper works for plastic cases and should be around 20 dollars or so.
The Load:
Winchester 2.5 inch case - This spent case was the folded crimp rather tha roll crimped but still roll crimps just fine.
CCI 109 primer - drops barrel pressure to 8,500 lup. = Or you can use WW209 primer but barrel pressure increases to 9,100 lup - But still well under the 12,000 lup for max pressure.
Be aware that if you use the 209 primer that even though a higher pressure curve that my balsitics program says the velocity in feet per second does not change much even worth mentioning.
Also my ballistics computer program is dated back to the late 80s when DOS 6.22 computers were the norm rather than todays windows - But i still trust it and it hasnt let me down yet.
Powder chg is Winchester 296 powder at 13.5 grains.
2ct .125 thick 410 nitro cards over powder chg and compressed at 20 foot pounds min to ensure tight pack on powder as its sensitive to loose squibs loads if not kept tightly compressed which later your roll crimp will help add and keep this tight pressure fit on the powder chg.
Add buffering till you fill the case just aprox a little over 1/2 inch from case being full - Or compressed cotton balls till same just dont get crazy of packing the crap out of it just tight enough that itll still compress a bit but not a bunch for slugs travel down bbl later.
Know a win wa410 wad with slits cut to bottom of wad but not through the wads flat inside of the shotcup.
Now i use the lyman cast slug mold number 313445 with soft lead but since its under sized per chokes needs it can be pure wheel wt lead but wont expand as well as soft lead.
This is my number one choice for loading as its 95 grains right at rems slug wt of 96. grains and is a wad cutter design which is a straight wall slug with a domed flat top which also comes as close as you can to rems foster slug in diameter but still not a hollow base.
Drop this slug into the now slit cut winchester waa410 shotcup and press firmly into the wad ensuring its seated flatly in the wad and trim the excess plastid wad petals off just to the slugs top most still 313 diameter mark leaving the domed flat point of the slug proturding above the now cut to length petals.
press this into the winchester case hull on top of the buffering or cotton ball stuffing and press down till you get enough case to roll down over the slug to get it to compress and hold the slug and internals tight for proper ignition of the powder as again powder needs to be tight packed at at least 20 foot pounds of pressure and thats for example tested after roll crimping that if you cant press the slug and wad further into the finished roll crimped round _ YOU GOT IT and thats all you need but dont go over bd buy using the drill press to over pressure the load while roll crimping eigther so roll crimp n check then if nore needed further roll crimp till you get it.
Now this sounds tricky but its not after you do it and experiment youll see its not and exact roll crimp legth by any means.
Im only trying to drive it into your mind what needs to be done and why and my explanation while in depth is only to get you to understand why ect.
So roll crimp till crimper wont easily roll crimp anymore and just check slugs tight in wad column with no movement down into case.
Now i didnt chrony the load but my once again old DOS 6.22 ballistics program says itll shoot the load right at aprox 1900 feet per second.
Now trajectory wise if this load is sighted in at 1/2 inch high at 50 yards the slug should by my program be minus 2 inches low at 100 yards or there abouts.
I didnt write down the foot pounds of energy at muzzle or 50yds or 100yards per my notes.
And i think its due to the cast slug that was used and if copper jacketed it might have given energy specs.

Now tht was with a winchester 410 case above.

With a remington 2.5 inch case same as above per info but with the fllowing components.
Winchester 209 primer only ! Or any 209 primer - NO 109 PRIMERS
Winchester 296 powder at 15.0 grains which will be aprox 9500 lead unit pressure and a bit faster at 1950 feet per second.
This one uses a Remington SP410 wadd slits cut if not already to bottom of cup with above cast slug lyman number 313445 as a 95gr wad cutter style slug wad petals trimmed as above and finished as above.

I didnt test load any federal cases as winchester 296 powder wasnt listed any where i could find info.
But if i was to want to do the federal 410 plastic case my info says IMR4227 at 15.5 grains using eigther a rem sp410 wad or a federal 410sc wad and a 209 primer would produce just a tad over 11000 lead unit pressure at the 1900 fps velocity = BUT TAKE NOTICE AS I DID = 12000 lead unit pressure is considered the safe max per my ballistics program for a 410 shotgun with full choke and your ALREADY AT 11000 lup.
NOW IN MY OPINION WE ARE SITTING TOO CLOSE TO THE CAMP FIRE HERE LEAVING US WIDE OPEN TO DISASTER.
Remember crimp pressures ect so id stay away from the federal case per the much higher pressure curves.
Its just not worth gettin hurt over .
PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT USE THIS INFO AS A QUIDE PER CHANGES ECT FOR YOUR TESTING BUT RATHER INFO.

Head Shot

Revolver, don't doubt the 410s ability to kill game. I shoot a 410 on a regular basis for driven pheasant and partridge and use a Mossberg pumper for pigeons and crows over decoys and flighting. I regularly kill pigeons and crows out to 40yrds and with witnesses, killed a seriously long crossing cock pheasant last season at a measure 60 paces, stone dead. You just have to be either a pretty good natural shot or practise until you are. I shoot 3inch Fiocchis #6 shot. I have not shot ball or slugs from either of my 410s but would feel there is plenty of info., in the previous contributions and seeing you can shoot 12 and 20 gauge slugs see no reason why you could not build a suitable load. As mentioned check the choke restriction. Considered reloading over here but almost as expensive as the shells and I can be enjoying myself shooting instead of sitting at a bench. Have fun and interested to see how you progress.
Never be afraid to ask questions on here no matter how stupid you may feel they are. Guys on here with loads of experience and nice guys willing to help. Welcome aboard and don't forget to show us some of your hunting results.

Thanks Guys!

Thanks for the replies guys! From the research I have done so far, the Marlin 410 has a cylinder bore barrel and my understanding is that it does not have the capacity to be choked in its stock form. However, if I feel the need I do have a gunsmith right down the road who has cut barrels for chokes for me in the past.

Thanks for the link Combat Diver, thats actually the post that first got me thinking about building up something for the 410.

Trapper, I went over to the forum and signed up but I haven't got my conformation email yet. I assume it has to be checked over manually by an admin or something. I have looked at some of Ed Harris's posts and he seems to be QUITE knowledgeable on the subject. Thank you for providing me such a valuable resource!

Those ridiculous Jesus barrels are the ones I was talking about in the original post Head Shot, I found the website for them that sells the 375 grain magic thunder bullets of Zues but they only recommend shooting them out of their barrels (.... shock....). Thats when I started wondering if it would be possible to work up a load with a reduced OAL in order to allow feeding.

Sus, I actually have hunted with a 410 single shot numerous times since I was a kid. Ive killed plenty of raccoons with it, dove, squirrel, I just didn't know how receptive people would be to the idea. Most of the other forums I have checked out seem to tear apart anyone who suggests using the 410 for anything other than a broom stick. Im limited to a 2.5 inch chamber on the Marlin, but I think I can load something plenty powerful in that. The 336 action is designed to take some abuse so I tend to imagine I can load to the upper realm of what is safe.

Thanks again for all the comments and warm welcome guys! This is going much more smoothly than I thought it would.

On a side note, have any of you tried using 444 brass? It seems that the 444, 303, and 9.3 all have the same dimensions as 410 brass. The 444 has a reduced length of 2.12 inches and I thought that sounded perfect for crimping a projectile onto. What I started wondering about though is a road Head Shot went down. If I load a .408-.410 projectile into a .429 case mouth will I need a wad or sabot type setup? Can i get away with simply putting a cork wad underneath? If I need to place the slug in a wad, will it do dirty things to my barrel when it reaches the .410 exit? Would I be better off placing a .375 round in a plastic sabot and going for broke? I have so many questions on this subject and after scrounging the internet for several days I think I may end up doing quite a bit of this testing myself. I hope Ed Harris can help me out some on this? I really feel like with a beefed up action like the 336 its possible to make that little 410 slug scream. If I should come up with something (it will take several months since we are talking about Christmas here) I will definitely share it with you guys since it seems like the 410 has a loyal following on this forum!

Hello :
Just added more info on my above posting as edited info.
Letting you know just in case you missed it while i was gone per the original start of it.
Revolver per your 444 brass ect idea. ( although way too short a 44 magnum pistol case comes to mind for really low powered slug load in a 410 but with chamber being longer and larger i dont believe it would even be worth the effort for any good results.)
Yeah i too went down that road but the brass wall of the 44 case is thinner which makes the inside of the case way too big for a 410 shotcup to properly seal .
Its so loose fitting that the powder actualy slips along side the wad and also when fired with a plastic wad the powder cup on the bottom blows up rather than seal for ignition.
Just doesnt work for todays plastic wads.
But if your headed down the brass case road then nitro cards work as does a cup side turned down on top of powder chg a 44 cal pistol gas check.
Id use aluminum gas checks since softer but copper works too.
This will and was the closest i could come up with for getting a powder to load column seal on eigther a lead shot or slug load.
Then 2 ct 410 nitro .125 cards and wadding as needed (buffering or cotton if slug load)
Now since no plastic wad is being used the slug MUST now be sized per the choke for accuracy.
A full choke needs a .395 dia slug and a modified needs a .400 diameter slug to fit nicely through a fixed choke without too much wobble.
With the above post i talked about the slug wasnt too much of a concern because the plastic wad would smush shall we say to allow a tight fit for the slug for both a full or modified choke without any problems due to the plastic being able to flow more like fluid through the choke which a hard or even soft cast solid slug would not safely do so.
Heres another problem i ran into with the brass case versus the plastic case.
The plastic case by design being plastic actualy compresses the cases outside hull against the 410 chamber which stops back powder burn and gases from getting to the end of the chamber when fired where as with the brass case even after chamber fired didnt seal the gasses as well and many times it did let a bit of chamber pressure back around the brass case into the chamber that a plastic sealed off.
Now it wasnt a serious enough deal from my testing but still an unwanted risk per my mind set.
Also the 410 plastic case rim is thicker and larger than some of the brass rifle cases which till chamber fired left the case head sloppy in chamber but still case head only centered rather than properly fit due to hull fire forming to chamber which does NOT make or form the rim larger to properly fit the chamber per the extractor needs..
There were three cases i recall i tried and the 303 british case and the 444 marlin case and last was a 9.3x74r case.

444 case was 2.22 inches long
303 british as i recall was 2 inches long.
The 9.3x74r case was a full 3 inches long as i remember. (This case is hard to find and i asked earlier in another post about findind 6 or so for more testing but none yet)

I played dumb and asked others for there experiences but seems most of us have ran into the same issues.

But the case heads diameter or thickness on one or another caused single shot bbls to eigther not close due to too thick which you could easily file or the case rim was too small in diameter that some times the extractor on my H&R single shot wouldnt reliably catch the rim for extraction after firing it.

Dont remember which was which per each caliber brass being used now but if you measure a factory 410 case rim for diameter and thickness then google search each of the three brass rifle cases you will see which has slop for diameter and which was too thick but could be filed easily once and which would cause the extractor not extract the round per the undersized case rim as it is ect.

I have long since dropped the idea of using the brass case for slug loading but you could load it up with lead shot with no wad and hot glue the overshot card to hold the shot in the brass hull.
Dont use a nitro card as over shot card as its so hard that the shot actualy cant penetrate the card and produces a doughnut hole pattern.
Use a heavy paper as the overshot card so lead shot can shoot through it and thus produce a uniform round shot pattern.
Try anything you can think of and pattern test your load and change till you find the uniform shot pattern needed.
Head Shot

Thanks for the great replies Head Shot!

Here is where I have come after taking to you guys a bit and then talking to a 410 marlin owner and reloader. He wanted to do something similar but never actually did it. The plan I have at the moment involves using the 410 brass cartridges from rocky mountain cartridge, they are the exact dimensions as a standard 410 plastic shell. Then using the lyman #41027 200 grain hbwc bullet. What I have considered is having the cartridges cut down a bit to 2 inches OAL so that I can crimp the bullet into the brass hull as originally intended. What I have not figured out is

1. what dies to use, I think that the 405 winchester and the 416 taylor may be the closest I have found LoadData: .405 Winchester / .405 WCF (Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition) Charge and Load Information/Data for the .405 Winchester / .405 WCF (Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition). the only thing that really concerns me with the 405 winchester die set is the bullet end of the case being to small. I think I could use a 416 416 Taylor set if I needed too (http://gunczar.com/416taylorcart.jpg) but the "neck sizing die" portion of them scares me a bit, I don't know if that means they are going to try to taper the cartridge or not? I don't know how it would but Im new to reloading so that part is a bit confusing.

2. If I am using brass hulls and a 41 caliber cast lead bullet, what do I need to do regarding all the space in the cartridge itself? I know that too much dead space inside a cartridge can lead to no good very bad things, but what I am basically doing at that point is making a rifle round. So how do I make my rifle round without blowing my face up? I would prefer not to use a bunch of shot cards, fillers, etc... because I want the hollow base to have the opportunity (not sure if it will) to open slightly and engage the bore of the barrel. I would imagine if it was capable of doing this it would lead to much higher velocities.

I know that the marlin 410 action is rated to 40,000 CUP, I also know that the magtec brass which is much thinner than the rocky mountain cartridge is rated to 36,000 psi so.... I am fairly certain I can safely work up something bad nasty to fire out of the marlin 410 lever action. What Im not sure of is where to go from here. Once I figure out what die set I need I suppose the safest thing to do would be to start with a load of equal weight in shot and start moving up. How do I know when I have reached the highest safe load? I would prefer to stop before having the rifle blow up in my face.

At the moment, I am experimenting with BPI's 1/40z Thug Slug. I have tried this at 25 yards from a Cyl. bore Mossberg pump gun. It was a BPI load. I was not impressed as there was some keyholing. More to be done with this as I only fired five shells....really was testing function and that element was fine.
As to forming hulls....I have used .303 British. While dimensions are similar, the Brit case and rim are NOT the same as a .410 hull. They can be made to work though though they are a bit short.


The .303 is the third one down. Notice that the head of the case does not blow out and note the thickness of the rim.

About solid slugs...the major problem is stabilizing the slugs in a smoothbore. The Rem slug works because it is the Foster style weight forward "badminton shuttle cock" shape.
Pete