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Discussion Starter #1
Hello, I'm new here, and new to cast bullets in rifles.  I'd like to shoot my 416 more, and so would like to develop a cast load at around 1800-2000 fps.  I'd like it to fit in the magazine of my Model 70.  

Any information will be much appreciated.

Take care.
 

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Sledge,

Welcome to this board.   We try to give as much information here as possible, and I try to keep up with things and still make bullets!  So I'm sorry if I'm a little late getting an answer posted for you.

The .416 Remington is a natural when it comes to cast bullets.   You really have to do something wrong not to make them shoot well.   There are some things to keep in mind however.  

You will need to use a Lyman "M" type of neck expanding die for best results and to keep the case mouth from shavin lead from the bullet, a real no-no when loading cast pills.

Also, when selecting powders you will also be best advised to use a powder with a burning rate much slower than you would for your full throttle loads.   The idea here is to get a peak pressure as low as possible, and to have that pressure peak drawn out over as long a time as possible in the pressure curve, as a longer, more prolonged peak pressure is much easier on cast bullets than is a sharp, quick, short duration spike of pressure.

Lastly make sure that the bullets are seated to firmly engrave the rifling in your rifle when the loaded round is chambered.   Cast bullets don't tolerate a jump into the rifling very well in fixed chamber guns.   If you cant seat them to engage the rifling, at least seat them out to the longest practical C.O. L. that your magazine in the Model 70 will allow.

All that being out of the way now, I'll give you some loads that should work as a starting point with your desired 2000 fps target velocity in mind.

BTB 417"-375g LFNGC/78.0g IMR 4350/WLRP/Rem Brass/2050 fps

BTB 417"-375g LFNGC/80g H4831/Fed 215/Rem Brass/2030 fps

BTB 417"-375g LFNGC/83.0g H870/Fed 215/Rem Brass/2010 fps.

BTB 417"-375g LFNGC/84.0g WC870/Fed 215/Rem Brass/1980 fps.

BTB 417"-375g LFNGC/87.0g WC872/Fed 215/Rem Brass/1925 fps.

These loads are from a Lilja 26" barreled Sako action.  Don't know if they will work for you, but should put you in the ballpark.

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Marshall,
Thank you for this reply and the other on my more recent post on the same subject.  Since this one is more detailed, I'll just let the other fade away...

I'm particularly intrigued (read cheap) by that surplus WC872 which you mention in both posts, but in the other you say that I should load it duplex with a 3 grain booster of Red Dot or Bullseye.  You don't mention that in this post.  If I use the Fed 215, can I get away without the priming charge?

I know from limited experience a few years ago that I can't follow the rule of not allowing the gas check or lube grooves to protrude into the powder space.  When you say the 416 Rem is a natural for cast loads, are you saying that it's close enough to a straight case that this doesn't matter?

Can you give me a website or phone number for the supplier of WC872 you mentioned?

And do you sell that Lyman expander I need?Or can you point me somewhere for it?  I loaded a few of your bullets a couple of years ago with my RCBS dies, but I assume the Lyman has a larger expander.

Thanks so much for your time.  And for your salutation.  Our Lord does bless me every day, as I can tell He does you.

Take care.

Joe
 

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Sledge,

For the surplus powders, I'm going to start a new thread!  You're not the only one wanting to know about them, and I'll post a link to them as well as some other information about their powders and availablility.

About the duplex load, with the Red Dot or Bullseye, you will most likely find best results using the suggested 3.0g booster, but I don't want anyone taking this suggestion out of context and applying it indescriminately to other cartridges and powders... DON'T DO IT!

A Fed 215 will get it burning, but you will have an abundance of unburned powder without the "booster".

We don't sell any dies at all.   I'll post here some links to sources for online ordering!  You will find the "M" die a great asset to your loading bench when using cast bullets.   You won't be sorry! (No I'm not on commission at Lyman!  Sure wish I was with Marlin though!)

Lyman Products
Midsouth Shooter's Supply
Midway USA

And again, I greet you with the blessings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Brother Marshall,
I hate to pester you, but at this newbie level of cast bullet loading, the more I learn the more questions I have...

I found your link to Jeff Bartlett, and he has 8# of WC 872 for &#3640 new, and 8# of IMR5010 for &#3632 (pulldown).
Given the number of loads I'll get, the cost difference is of no concern.

Which powder would you buy for this application?  While the duplexing doesn't scare me (too much), I'd just as soon avoid it, and since you didn't mention it for the 5010 I wonder if it might be the one to buy.

I am not one of those loaders who will go to any lengths to reduce group size by 1/2".  If I can develop a load which will shoot into 2 MOA, I will be very happy until I go back to Africa and seek Cape buffalo again with this rifle.  Then we'll either go back to jacketed or make a new plan!

It is always such a joy to meet a brother in Christ!

Thanks, and take care.

Joe
 

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Joe,

The IMR 5010 will burn fairly clean without a "priming boost", simply using a Federal 215.  The WC872 as I mentioned will leave some unburned powder granules in the bore.

However, the 5010 is a very coarse extruded powder that doesn't meter through a powder measure worth sour grapes!  The WC872 is a fine ball powder that meters flawlessly in most powder measures!   I like to set up one measure for the priming charge, and another for the main powder charge, and load fun loads without a big hassle of weighing each charge!

Here again though, it is a matter of personal choice.  There is no right answer, just different options!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks, Marshall.

I believe I'll order the 5010 and give 'er a go.  Thanks again, and I'll report back how she goes.

Take good care,

Joe
 

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Marshall,

One question I'm still wondering about.  You mentioned that the 416 Rem is a natural for cast bullets.  When I tried a few of your 375 grainers a couple of years ago, I was frustrated that I couldn't obey the rule against having quite a bit of bullet protruding below the neck into the case.

Is this problem incremental?  That is, is it less critical with a round with a small step at the shoulder than one, say a mag 7 or 30, with a large step down?

If so, is the 416 close enough to a straight case to behave as one?

Waitin' on powder...

Thanks, and take care.

Joe
 

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Joe,

If your rifle is that short throated that the .417"-375g LFNGC bullets protrude below the bottom of the case neck I am very surprised.   Most of these guns have very long throats where that is not a problem.

With this consideration you might try the .417"-335g LFNGC, it should stay inside the case neck when seated to chamber in your rifle without problem.

About the base of the bullet being below the case neck... I'm not crazy about it, but in this case a filler, such as Cream Of Wheat, Cornmeal or Super Grex shot buffer will do wonders in protecting the base of the bullet.  I've posted before that I don't like to use them, but in some instances, such as this, they do have their place.  The goal is to have a compressed load of powder topped with enough filler as to completely surround the bullet protruding into the case below the neck.  Some surprising accuracy is possible using this technique.

Only testing and shooting will prove the success of your endeavors.  

The 5010 is a good buy, and lends itself to cast bullets in many other bottlenecked cases other than your .416, so you should have lots of fuel for other projects as well.  

Hope this clears the air for you!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Marshall,

It was magazine length, not throating, which restricted my OAL.  I'm considering loading to two different lengths, with just a few to keep in the magazine at the short length, and using the gun mostly in a "shoot one, load one" manner, and having the shorter ones for when quick follow-ups are required.

My only concern about this is the repeated snapping the extractor over the rims--not the way that old beauty was designed to work.

Maybe it's possible to keep the magazine one down and load too-long rounds into the mag so they'll slip up under the extractor, with the nose-end high?

Take care.

Joe
 
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