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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone heard of or worked with a 416 WSM? This would simply be a 300 WSM necked up to .416 with a slight reduction in case length to account for the shortening effect of the neck expansion. COL could go to 3.1" to match current magazine length in the Winchester short actions.

The case would hold 66 grains of water with a 300 gr Hawk Bullet, delivering over 2700 fps and 5000 FPE at 65,000 psi. AA 2230 would do the trick, without compression.

A deep seated 400 gr Hornady or the like would still leave 52.5 water grains of usable capacity, delivering 2230 fps and 4425 FPE.

Best of all, these velocities are all readily achievable from a 20 inch bbl.

These sound like big numbers, but they are very reasonable. I have worked with the 416 Rem Mag for over 10 years, and driven buckets of 300 gr Hawks 2950 fps using R15 with no pressure problems from a 22 inch bbl. The loss in case capacity going to the WSM works out to a modest 8% drop in velocity when the 3% increase in efficiency is added for the short, fat case.

The 300 gr .416 bullet has the same SD as the 165 gr .308 (.248)and is a legitimate 300 yard proposition. Reduced 300 gr loads will duplicate the 375 H&H at 2550 fps with less recoil. The 400 grainers have a SD of .330 and a TKO of 141, 41% higher than the 375.

The 416 WSM has the same case capacity to bore ratio as the 458 Win Mag, which thrives on AA2230 with no load compression. My 22 inch 458 drives 500 grain bullets over 2200 fps with no pressure problems using 2230.

Hawk can build custom 250 gr HPs with an SD of .207 for reduced loads for deer, mimicking the 375 with 210 to 235 grainers.

Dressed out, the associated rifle would qualify as a "Super Scout" with a forward mounted scope and even an 18.5 inch bbl threaded for a removable brake.

Anybody want one of these? I do!!
 

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This round, or at least the concept, has been brought up on several other sites as well; and has always sounded like a great idea to me. The .416 Express or .416/.350 RM is a similar concept with a bit less steam that is loved and touted by the few who have one. When I need a rifle in this power class I will be looking hard at these two.

I guess rounds like these are limited by the fact that a lot of rifles in this power class are not really used much or at least not hunted with much, but are owned for boasting rights. No matter how useful a .416 WSM or Express may be it simply does not carry the appeal to this larger segment of the big bore market that the safari mystique give a Rigby or sheer foot pounds do to some other rounds.

Fireplug
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Fireplug -

Your comments about the big bore market are well taken. The bore size and energy levels of a 416 WSM have limited practical application in North
American hunting, and would lack the mystique of traditional safari rounds in Africa.

I have been testing the 300 and 270 WSM since they were released and have observed the merits of beltless, short and fat first hand. It is a welcome trend away from the Lazzaroni, Ultra Mag and Weatherby .378 based overbore insanity afflicting the industry of late.

If you divide case capacity in grains of water by the square of the bullet diameter in inches, watch out if the result is over 1000. The 7mm Rem Mag just sneaks under at 967 and the 264 Win Mag is over at 1133. The 25-06 is 953 and the 257 Weatherby is 1180. Need I say more?

PS the 416 WSM is 381.
 

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I like the sounds of this round as well. It would almost be a short-action 416 Taylor. I am playing with the idea of a switch barrel rifle right now and one of the barrels will be a .416. In a Short action my thoughts on calibers are .270 WSM, .338 WSM and 416 WSM. In a long action they are pretty much the corresponding standard magnums with the exception of a 7mm Rem Mag as opposed to say a 270 Weatherby. Sean
 

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416 express

Better than that is what is now called the 416 Lockhart. Same case but with a 35 deg. sholder and the only one who is using it is Fred Smith at Bullberry Barrell Works. Works great in a 14" magnaported Contender Enchore. Gun prints a 1" group at 100yds. It's louder than **** but who cares. It's a BLAST to shoot with the recoil of a strong 44mag. I am getting over 2450fps with a Hornady 350gr and that over 4660 foot pounds of energy. Nothing in the world can stand up to that
 

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It would be an interesting round. The 2200+ fps you cite with a 400 gr bullet seems reasonable when comparing to the 416 Taylor. I'm getting solid 2350 fps numbers with 400 grainers using RL-15, and 2600 fps arena using 300 grainers, although I don't see much utility in this bullet weight for the cartridge unless just practicing.

One of the reasons that Winchester didn't go with a 338 WSM was because they couldn't duplicate or beat 338 WM performance (velocity) in the WSM case (at least with 225+ gr bullets) because of OAL limitations in the rifles, so they chose the 325 (8mm). Using a rifle with a longer magazine, I don't have much doubt that Taylor-type performance could be achieved with the WSM case.
 

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As Fireplug stated, the 416 WSM was brought up on several sites. I asked the same question about 2 years ago on the ShortMags site, when I was in the process of building a 416 cal rifle. At least one rifle has been chambered for it and the info posted on ShortMags.

I went with the 416 Taylor because the all the components were already in place and "cheap" from Midway...no custom reamers, dies, etc.

I think it is one of those calibers that is overlooked in this country for many reasons, like the 8mm has been. Something about the "30 cal" mind lock, "hurt me" factor, "African caliber", "if you want a big one, get a 45-70" to name a few reasons.

I looked at the BC and SD of the 416 cal, liked the numbers, and went with it instead of a 44 or 45 cal.

My Taylor can be loaded with 300 to 400 gr bullets, from 2000 to 2700+ f/s. Yes, at the higher ranges it will whack you a good one, but no more so than my 45-70 loaded up, and it holds its velocity much better at longer ranges because of the much higher bullet BC's.

There is even a 416/450 Marlin out there to think about. Loaded COL of 3.00" gives about 65 net grains of H2O, 350 gr at 2100 f/s, but the woods are full of good cases to use, are used or have been used.

A good squint and any of the newer software programs can give you lots of numbers to play with and get the juices running and the fantasies going full steam. My heart condition won't let me use my programs very often, nor will my pocket book. :D

In this day and age, anyone can design a cartridge and have it named for who or whatever they want. I LOVE THESE TIMES.

Enjoy
 

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416 B&M

In reply to the original thread to "loader". Loader I have been working with something similar to the 416 WSM for since the beginning of the year. I call it the 416 B&M. I am not a forum type guy, but once and awhile I will check around. My 416 B&M is a 300 RUM cut to 2.250, and squeezed down to 416. I end up trimming the case to 2.240. My rifles are Winchester M70s WSM actions with 20 inch barrels. In general I can shoot 400 gr bullets at 2325-2350 fps--350 gr bullets at 2450 fps--325 gr bullets at 2500 fps and 300s at over 2600 fps with no issues of pressure at all. SSK Industries has built all my rifles, I also have a .500 version and 458 version.
I call the .500 a 50 B&M and the 458 B&M. I leave in the morning to head out to Africa to give the rifles and cartridges a good workout. I have these listed over on ammoguide in more detail if you ever want to take a look. I think I have a couple of loads listed on this site too, but it has been a long time. My B&M case is just a bit larger than what a WSM case would be and is equal to 416 Taylor. I have 416 Taylor and Remington and Rigby--they are just much bigger guns. The B&M rifles come in 5-6 inches shorter and a pound or two lighter than most. In the future if anyone would like more info or just to chat let me know, [email protected]. However I will be out of touch until the first of December.
Thanks
Michael
 

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Sorry loader, not with the cal in particular but in 458 yes and it surpassed all my expectations an then some!! Go for it.......

SSGA
 

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416 wsm

Hey, did you make the gun? I have a reamer from Pacific Research, a 416 barrel, dies from redding and a Weatherby Vanguard WSM on hold at the local shop to send off for rebarreling.
Will let you know how it works.
 

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Old thread...

The thread is just over seven years old, Don. I doubt we'll ever again see any of those who posted. You are now the trailblazer on this one...
 

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Dance Cards

Don 416. N.V. Shooter is correct. But you seem ready to dance, anyway. If you start out with a rifle made for the WSMs, there's no foul in making up a larger caliber, version.

I don't remember if Howa made any short actions. So if yours is a long action, maybe you should look at doing a standard caliber in 416 caliber. The 416 Remington and 416 Ruger will do this in respective long and standard length actions. If you do have a short action, then you are on the right track, so far.

I have made up a 2R 416 Wildcat, out of the 375 Ruger case. It has a little more capacity than the WSM case, and its sweet spot is 330 gr. bullets. But beware, any of these will be stock splitters. Mine has double cross bolts, which are glued into an epoxy bedded stock.

Also, the H&H brass is much easier to work over, so a 416 x 350 Rem. Mag. isn't too far down the list for a short magnum. Hornady is finally putting the 300 RCM brass on their February 2015 production schedule, and if you wanted to purchase a year or so's supply, this may also do the job in a more standard dimensioned action.

You can always sell the WSM and buy something that's better at feeding H&H patterned cases.

But it looks from your thread reply that you are all ready to dance with the guy who brought you. So I say go with it, in your Howa action, which is already set up for the WSM cases. I would suggest you make sure that the Howa will indeed feed these .416 cases. This can be done by just necking up 325 WSM brass to your 416, and seating some bullets in a handful of sample dummy cases, with no primers or powder.

With the Howa's hook extractor, I don't see any problems here, with these oversized bullets. But you're the only one who can test this out with dummy rounds.

FWIW, I've made my own dummy 44's by necking up 300 RCM brass. Even these have decent shoulders. Your WSM's will have better one's. Those B & M thingees only head space on their case mouths in the larger calibers, so you cannot use any kind of crimp. With the WSM's short necks, you will need to crimp a heavy .416 bullet, to keep them from moving in your magazine. I could just barely squeeze out a .450 cal. case from the Ruger Basic Brass.

Winchester's engineers wouldn't get behind a 338 WSM, because it lags ballistically, behind their previous 338 Win. Mag. Ruger did do a smaller 338 RCM with Ought Six capacity, because they went with 20 inch barrels and a special powder blend, which equals the larger 338 Winchester Magnum.

I have a left hand Ruger Light Magnum in 300 RCM, but I haven't reloaded for it. I can't match the factory's ballistics, with canister powders. I'm going to use it as a donor rifle for a wildcatted .243 cal., X 300 RCM. I've also waited a long time for some of this virgin Hornady brass, to show up again.

You're using WSM parent brass which will give you a leg up on me. Loaded ammo in 416 Rem. Mag. and 416 Ruger has been readily available, down here in the lower 48. But most of this is loaded with 400 gr. bullets.

I hope this gives you the dimensions of the sandbox you're going to be playing inside. The other downside is that most .416 bullets have cannelures with a half inch long shank below them. Seating such a bullet, a half inch deep in the WSM case will really cut down its capacity.


That's because the 416 Rigby and my own 416 wildcat, both have half inch long necks. Mostly because of the Rigbys, though.
 
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