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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I was told I could modify my 1894 Marlin to accept the bigger cartridges.
I read the article on this site about modifying the Marlin. Then I wrote
some gunsmiths to see about doing this. This is one of the answers I got
from a very well-known and reputable gunsmith. I would sure appreciate
some feedback on this.

"The twist rate of the Marlin barrel is not suitable for the Garrett loads.
About the heaviest bullet the factory barrel will stabilize is 265 gr. Your
gun would require a new barrel."
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Both sound better yet. Why? Just because I like
them. Since when do I have to need them?? :D
 

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Hi, dzrtram:
Welcome to the forum. No personal experience, but Marlin's website says your 1894 has a 1 in 18.5" twist. The old Greenhill formula says that even the Beartooth 405 grain .44 bullet, at a length of 1.080", only needs a 1 in 25" twist to stabilize it. I'm wondering if that gunsmith was thinking of the 444 Marlins which had a 1 in 38" twist, and may still have. That was marginal for a 265 grain bullet.

Bye
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks, Jack. I appreciate the thought. I'll look into it.
 

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Hey Jack,
I think the twist rate you mentioned is for the 357 version. For 44 mag they still list 1:38. The 444 is a 1:20 now. I've often wondered why they don't use a faster twist on the 44; in fact, that's one of the reasons I haven't bought one. ID
 

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LET'S DO THE MATH

The 44 Magnum does not require a twist rate any faster than 1 turn in 38 inches unless you are going to load/shoot a bullet that is 300 grains or heavier. If you just have to load/shoot these heavy pills than get a 444 with the 1 in 20.

Using the physical dimensions of the highly regarded Beartooth Bullet we find the following:

BULLET: 250 GR. LFN GC .432 " DIA.
LENGTH: .715 "
NOSE TO CRIMP: .420 "
MEPLAT: .300 "
REQUIRED RATE IF TWIST: 47 OR FASTER


BULLET: 265 GR. WFN GC .432 " DIA.
LENGTH: .727 "
NOSE TO CRIMP: .345 "
MEPLAT: .340 "
REQUIRED RATE OF TWIST: 46 OR FASTER

BULLET: 280 GR. WFN GC .432 " DIA.
LENGTH: .765 "
NOSE TO CRIMP: .350 "
MEPLAT: .340
REQUIRED RATE OF TWIST: 43 OR FASTER

BULLET: 290 GR. LFN GC .432 " DIA.
LENGTH: .805 "
NOSE TO CRIMP: .420 "
MEPLAT" .300
REQUIRED RATE OF TWIST: 42 OR FASTER

BULLET: 300 GR. LFN GC .432 " DIA.
LENGTH: .860 "
NOSE TO CRIMP: 450 "
MEPLAT: .320 "
REQUIRED RATE OF TWIST: 38 OR FASTER(borderline)


THE NUMBERS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Nitro, you are the second person that has recommended the .444.
Are you saying the .444 instead of the .44 mag.? Or are you saying
shoot .44 mag in a .444? I didn't know you could do that. Please
elucidate, elaborate, and educate. :D
Thank you very much!!! :confused:
 

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PONTIFICATE

dzrtram,

Never, never fire any weapon with improper ammunition. When in doubt, don't do it.

In my post I suggested that if you just had to use the heavy 300+ grain bullets then launch them from the proper platform such as the Marlin lever action rifle chambered in 444 Marlin or 45/70 Government. U.S. Repeating Arms (Winchester) produces a Big Bore '94 chambered in 444 Marlin caliber.

Firing 44 Magnum ammunition in a rifle chambered in 444 Marlin caliber would result in very poor accuracy at best.

SUGGESTION: Go to www.buffalobore.com and order a box of 270 grain 44 Magnum ammunition to use in your Marlin Model 1894 lever action rifle chambered in 44 Magnum. That stuff is good for game animals up to 800 pounds at short range. If you hunt very large and/or dangerous game you may want to consider buying a large/dangerous game rifle. That's justification for another gun!!! Welcome to the gang.
 

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Thanks for the info Y'all. I'll have to look and see if I have any of that on my revolvers. I have not shot any heavy loads until recently so it may be visable now. I probably would have been wondering if it was a natural thing or not. Thanks again.

Wrong topic. Sorry.
 

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Hello Jack,

Thanks for your observations amd comments.

I wasn't using Mr. Greenhill's constant of 180. Wasn't using 150 either. Greenhill's formula is a good guide for copper jacketed lead projectiles but it assumes a specific gravity of 10.9 and a 4 caliber tangent ogive radius. As you indicated meplat diameter is a critical variable and a function of "nose to crimp" length and ogive radius.

I'll dust off my K&E slide rule, have another cup of java and report back later. This is getting interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yes, it is....

getting very interesting. You guys are talking
about things I've never thought of. I love the
education I'm getting.:D
Thank you
 

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Hi, NITRO:
Slide rules! I discovered my Hughes-Owens in the bottom of a drawer recently. All I could do was look at it and :confused:

Using pure lead only reduces the required twist by 2%, but nose profile sure makes a big difference. These not-so-new flanged plastic tipped bullets should need a faster twist than they do, but plastic isn't as heavy as lead. So the critical centre of gravity is further back than it is with a lead tip, and the bullet is stable, as my magpies found out.

Let's see your math, I'm interested.

Bye
Jack
 

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Hey Jack,
Slide rule? Do you keep that in the drawer under your typewriter?

Do you have the actual formula that is used to determine this?
 

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dzrtram

I have a Marlin 1894p with 16 1/2" barrel. A couple of years ago I experimented with different weight and style Beartooth bullets in it at 100 yards.

I got good accuracy and bullet stability with
250gr LFNGC @ 1900 fps
265gr WFNGC @ 1750 fps
280gr WFNGC @ 1600 fps
300 gr LMNGC W 1600 fps

The one I shot the most was the 300 gr bullet with excellent accuracy (with ghost rings. No scope)

I also shot the beartooth 330gr LFNGC bullet @ 1475 fps. It was still pretty accurate @ 100 yards but the bullet was starting to yaw (not keyhole though) as it went thru the paper.

If you are shooting the 1894 with the 20" barrel you should see even more stability with the higher velocity. I really have no idea how the Garrett's will perform. At least this will give you something to compare it to.

Good luck................ Bill M
 

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ALAS! Range Results. Now I can put my K&E slide rule back in the drawer under the Royal typewriter.

In 1965 Uncle Sam said "I WANT YOU" and I went. My MOS uas 91A10 Combat Medic until "The Colonel" discovered that I could type. Shortly thereafter my bloody hands were transformed into purple hands.

US ARMY. We used to do more by 9:00 AM than most people did all day. Now we are WAITING on the likes of Turkey to KICK ***.

Our Government threatens our States with WITHHOLDING matching Federal Funds (our money to begin with) if that individual State does not "agree to" certain demands by the Government. Why the **** can't we threaten to withhold foreign aide to countries that do not "agree to" our demands?

Uncle Sam can threaten its own States and its oun citizens but OOOOH, don,t step on any toes "across the pond".

Sorry. Didn't mean to ramble. It's just that the more I type the madder I get. I'll go to another web page to vent my frustrations.
 

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Hey NITRO,
good to see someone still knows how to use a typewriter and White-Out.

On the subject of Turkey, they are a secular democracy, and we have helped them. They are the least of our worries in the region and are actually held up as an example of what the Mideast should be. I wouldn't worry too much about it. The military planners are paid to have a contingency list a mile long. I don't doubt we'll eventually, before next Thursday, have the permission. Turkey wants to have key influence in the "New Iraq" so that they don't have a Kurdish uprising in their own country. That coupled with a few billion dollars will probably prevail in the end. I wouldn't be in too big a hurry to bash a Muslim country that isn't activley working against us. My $.02. The US Military is capable of kicking *** without the assistance of Turkey. I'd focus my anger on the ******** war protesters in this country and Europe who give aid, comfort, and encouragement to the enemy.
 
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