[Canach5]

My first post, hope it's in correct location.

I have the H&R replica 1873 Springfield. Maybe 1 shot out of 10 the primer fires and pushes the bullet (Meister 300gr cast flat point) about 1/2 inch into barrel. The powder is "clumped". It looks almost like moister problem.
After removing the bullet the lube is still intact.
I have tried 3 different batches of powder (2 of IMR 3031 & 1 IMR 4198) and 2 different batches of primers (Federal & CCI LR). With both powders I am using a light charge and just enough crimp to hold the bullet.
Has anyone ran into this problem? [/FONT]

 

[unclenick]

Welcome to the forum. Rules are to join in and have fun and play nicely with the rest of us kids.

It's not uncommon. Lubricated bullets are pushed out of the case mouth much more easily than a jacketed bullet. The fact your bullet is very light means there is also little inertial reaction force. So, nothing is holding the bullet in place long enough to let the powder get up enough pressure to sustain burning. People don't realize the deterrents use to slow the rate of burn in rifle powders will allow them to extinguish if the air in the case is burned up before they reach a critical burn sustaining pressure. Even in a case like yours, where 9 out of 10 work, you are likely to discover the muzzle velocities are erratic. This is usually a symptom of loading to a pressure too low for the burning rate of the powder chosen.

Four solutions:

Maximum heavy crimp on the bullet to make it harder to pull.

Use a significantly faster powder for that light lead bullet. Hodgdon Lil' Gun, for example.

Load to higher pressures if the gun will tolerate it? In this instance, that is probably not a good idea.

Try magnum primers. They pressurize the case more, which can help with the start pressure. They also can push the bullet loose faster, so you have to try both magnum and standard primers to see which is best for your load?

 

[BarkBuster20]

So 9-10 times the ammunition fires correctly? or ? did you wash your brass and not dry good before adding your powder?

 

[unclenick]

His powder is coming out in a clump. That means it started burning and the heat fused it. Typical of what you see in, for example, an underload of H110 in a revolver that's squibbed out. We had some photos posted by a member not too long ago. Usually burns most of the graphite off, so the remains have the sort of yellowish waxy appearance of the nitrocellulose. Happens when the bullet is too light for the powder or the load is too light for the powder burn rate or both.


Canach5,

I should have asked, what pressure and velocity are you trying to achieve?

 

[ChrisL]

My first post, hope it's in correct location.

I have the H&R replica 1873 Springfield. Maybe 1 shot out of 10 the primer fires and pushes the bullet (Meister 300gr cast flat point) about 1/2 inch into barrel. The powder is "clumped". It looks almost like moister problem.
After removing the bullet the lube is still intact.
I have tried 3 different batches of powder (2 of IMR 3031 & 1 IMR 4198) and 2 different batches of primers (Federal & CCI LR). With both powders I am using a light charge and just enough crimp to hold the bullet.
Has anyone ran into this problem? [/FONT]

Interestingly I had the same problem several years ago, with the first set of loads I ever put together for the .45-70. The powder was H-4198 and the load was a starting load, but from the Hodgdons manual, so not an exceptionally light load.

I had a couple of duds in the first couple of shots, just like you describe. The (jacketed) 300gr bullets were pushed into the rifling for an inch or so. The powder was yellowish and clumped.

I kept these rounds for a year or so, and then took them apart, and inspected everything. Nothing was wrong. Except perhaps the primers were not seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pockets.

I reseated the primers, put everthing back together using the exact same powder. The remaining rounds worked perfectly.

I haven't had the problem since with well over 2000 rounds of .45-70 since.

Chris.

 

[ribbonstone2]

Like the others, had a 45-70 that did that trick: drove the bullet into the barrel about 1/2" and had a clump of congealed, partly melted powder stuck behind the bullet. Published load of 2400, 405gr. cast bullet, and it has been used for quite a few shots before.

Only happened once...but took it as a sign to stop using that load.

Basically what I think happened is that the volume increased (by having the bullet move forward) faster than the powder burn...rather than having pressure increase as the powder burned, the pressure decreased.

Whatever the reason, went to more case filling type loads, and had no problems.

 

[miestro_jerry]

I shoot a lot of 45-70 and never had any of these problems, If the case has a really low level of powder, then I use a filler of some type, many times I just change the powder. I always use a strong crimp on all of my 45-70 bullets.

Jerry

 

[Cheezywan]

I don't own or shoot that caliber much.
Couple of thoughts though.

What does the powder in a current factory load look like?

And how much case volume does it fill?

Black or substitutes are allways an option for the 45-70.

Cheezywan

 

[Helix]

I had the exact same problem with my Marlin 45/70 a month or two back. I was starting with the low pressure loads with Re-7 which leave 1/3 of the case empty. Uncle nick and a couple other members got me straitened out and this issue seems to be a thing of the past after ajusting my crimp tighter. I also started making sure my pimers were seated more firmly. the firmer crimp and a hotter powder charge seems to have yeilded a much more accurate loading. the rounds are also throwing less soot back into my chamber, another problem the lower pressure loads seemed to have in my rifle.

 

[45-70 nut]

I never had a bullet get stuck in the barrell but with my first 45-70 loads I tried 300gr HP and 4064 (its what I had on hand) and my gun was filthy with granules of unburnt powder so I switched to 404gr cast and H322 (faster powder) with good results.

 

[Rocky Raab]

Yup, sounds like a classic "went out" situation where the powder never properly ignites. The solutions mentioned above (tighter bullet fit, firmer crimp, heavier charge) will fix it. For anyone curious, here's a picture of a charge of H110 that failed to ignite:

Note that the gray-black deterrent coating is gone, revealing the greenish yellow propellant. Some of the kernels have melted a bit, yet the charge did not ignite. This can be extremely dangerous because if it DOES ignite in this condition (hangfire), the lack of deterrent can cause it to burn with extreme speed and blow up the gun.

 

[Cheezywan]

Interesting picture Rocky. If you had showed me that and asked me to guess what it was......failure.

If it was laying on my driveway, I would go get a shovel to clean it up!

Cheezywan

 

[Canach5]

It seems as if my problem was not old powder or primers as I had first thought. I was being "super" careful to not get a hot load. Was only going to "plink" with and wanted a light load. I was loading below the minimum for most manuals.
It now looks like the powder charge was just to light. Increasing the power charge to above the minimums seems to have "fixed" the problem.
The groups have decreased by several inches and no longer have several grains of unburnt powder in the chamber. I will know for sure after about 100 rounds.
I guess the 45-70 just wasn't designed as a "plinking rifle"

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[al_sway]

You can plink with the .45-70, but you need to use the right powder. In my experience 3031 is not the best choice for light loads, and I have not had great success with 4198 at lower levels (I know, others have related that they have great success with both).
For plinking try Unique with your 300 grain bullets. You should be able to get around 1100-1200 fps easily (possibly down to 1000 fps without a challenge).

 

[mattsbox99]

al_sway is right, there are powders more suitable, I like Red Dot for any light load, but I have about a half ton of the stuff. Unique is a very versatile powder as well.

 

[unclenick]

I think Trail Boss is fast becoming a popular .45-70 plinking powder, as well as in straight wall handgun rounds. Right speed and lots of bulk. Someone reported one of the magazines recently had a simple way to figure out lead bullet starting loads with it. Calculate how deeply the bullet base seats (case length + bullet length - COL). Fill the case to that depth below the mouth with Trail Boss. Pour it out into a scale and weigh it, then multiply that weight by 0.7. Voila. Charge weight. I expect that only works for straight wall cases. If I find the article, I'll see? Sounds a little scary, but may be OK?

Meanwhile, if that scares you, Hodgdon's trapdoor Trail Boss loads are attached in PDF format.

 

[jamesicus]

I think Trail Boss is fast becoming a popular .45-70 plinking powder, as well as in straight wall handgun rounds. Right speed and lots of bulk. Someone reported one of the magazines recently had a simple way to figure out lead bullet starting loads with it ..........

Hodgdon IMR "Trail Boss" Data (PDF) page

or via the

Hodgdon IMR Powders Web page (click on DATA>TRAIL BOSS REDUCED LOAD via drop-down menu)

James

 

[unclenick]

So that's where it actually came from! Thanks! And it's not just for straight wall cases! Better still. It will likely become my new firelapping powder, too. Super clean burning.

 

[jamesicus]

I have experienced excellent results using Hodgdon IMR "Trail Boss" reduced hand loads to date as shown in these two recent posts:

http://shootersforum.com/showpost.htm?p=496419&postcount=17
http://shootersforum.com/showpost.htm?p=497531&postcount=18

I have since used the Hodgdon recommended formulation using typical 45/70 cast 405 grain bullets in 2 grain powder load increments from near minimum (19 grains) to near maximum (24 grains -- I never use maximum loads as a matter of principle). It has been too windy to shoot them across my chronograph for the past few days, hopefully I can do that and report the results early next week.

James

 

[slk]

I am loading a 45/70 for an 1874 Sharps with a 34" barrel. After talking to all of the great folks here and some at Allient powder company I went with 32gr reloader 7 with a 500gr cast bullet. I also loaded 39gr of reloader 7 with a 385gr cast bullet. I have had great luck with these loads so far and I am shooting good groups upward to 300 yds. I can shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yds. I went in the middle of what was suggested as starting and max loads. I am using a standard primer. Allient suggested I use a magnum primer, but I had loads of standard ones so that is what I went with.

Steve