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I was reading Red-Rides thread and picked up a bunch there. I have the Browning 1886 SRC made by Miroku (sp) and I love it but the cresent but plate hurts to shoot and I don't want to to cut the beautiful stock for a recoil pad!! Never bought a shoulder pad on the way home from the range before:eek: So, I was thinking that if I got the Perdirsoli or the Uberti the lil extra weight from the longer barrels would help?? I just can't get past the idea of paying for a wannabe that costs more than the Winchester. I'll be starting to reload when my press comes in and I already have the dies....Plus I have read not such good press on the Peridirsoli??? So I'm stuck but ready to buy as soon as I can make up my mind:eek:
I have only shot the Winchester 300gr JHP and the Remington 300gr SJHP factory stuff n don't consider myself a sissy but that cresent but plate must amplify the recoil:D I primarily punch paper or steel to a max of 500 yards so any and all suggestions would be welcome!! Thanks in advance
 

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.

FWIW, although YMMV, I used a slip-on leather BP on the curved BP, when hunting with my .405 Winchester/Miroku Model 1895.




.
 

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I would definitely consider a quality slip-on pad as Rangr44 suggests. The nice lines of the crescent butt plate on the 1886 is very attractive to me as well and I would never remove/modify it. I would
probably try some fairly stout loads (not Ruger #1 levels) and see how it works as-is first. If it is too much then I would go the route suggested by Rangr44.
 

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Stop shooting crazy high velocity hunting loads that beat you to death. Try some tamer loads made for the Trap Door, like the Remington 405 grainers. All you need is a 405 to 435 grain bullet going about 1200-1400 fps to punch paper or kill anything you hit with it. Better yet, learn to reload & shoot cast lead bullets & really have some fun. Check Beartooth's site about cast bullet loading techniques. No reason what so ever to take a beating shooting the 45-70. All you have to do is shoot the right loads. I shoot out to 800 yards with a 420 grain cast leaving the barrel @ 1350 fps with a rifle that has a "Crescent" buttplate with no ill effects. With a PAST pad it's a puddy cat to shoot. A PAST recoil pad strapped to your shoulder is a much better solution to reduce felt recoil than the ugly "slip-on" pads, IMHO.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Rangr44 and Ride-Red...I'll order the slip on as I found one by Limb Saver called the Air Tech...Looks nice so I bit the bullet and ordered it. I still want to get the new rifle though n if this Air Tech is what it says it is I'll get the Winchester for s**** and giggles...Thanks again
 

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Jasbucks,

I'd recommend the Past magnum recoil vest. It goes well with the range shooting you describe and leaves the rifle stock.

Eventually you'll realize that if you choose to hunt Deer with the rifle that very comfortable to shoot 45-70 light loads are devastating to Deer at the range you can hit them with a lever rifle. Example: a 405 gr at 1100-1200 fps is a superb Deer load and comfortable to shoot from a lever rifle.

The only advantage of a long barrel in 45-70 is if you will be doing long range open sight shooting and the reason is only an advantage in sight radius, not accuracy or long range for the Deer hunter. An 18" barrel for Deer is not a disadvantage AT ALL in 45-70.

Gary
 

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You are shooting it wrong. The crescent butt plates are a holdover from the late 18th century southern mountain rifles. No idea how they managed to get popular in the first place or to stick around for so long. But they did. This type of rifle is not meant to be fired from the shoulder. It is fired from the upper bicep. Shoulder the rifle as you normally would, then move it about a half inch or so outward. Look at the curve on the butt plates of the southern flint lock rifle or the old schuetzen rifles. This is the only way that it is even possible to fire those. It actually works quite well for off hand shooting. If the stock has cast off and toe out, a crescent butt plate is very comfortable. But that involves a rather expensive custom made stock.
 

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browning src 45-70 deer load. 335gr RFN 15 to 17 gr of unique, about 1600fps. one inch groups at 100 yds. easy on sholder, deadly on deer. sorry i can't post picks yet of targets.
 

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Mr. Raby is right on the money. Crescent butt plates work great, as long as you place them out on the upper bicep where they belong.

The length of pull on these rifles is also consistent with that. Compared to a rifle with the more modern "shotgun" style butt plate, a crescent butt plated rifle comes across the chest more than the norm, and you need to adjust your positions slightly to accommodate that.

They work great in off hand and sitting positions. Prone works ok provided you are shooting from a fairly high prone position and or off a rest. Which is how high you need to be anyway to operate the lever.

----

I'm also in agreement that you don't need to exceed black powder .45-70 velocities to hunt deer at practical lever gun ranges. The old US Government .45-70-405 load launched a 405 grain bullet at about 1200 fps. My preferred .45-70 load is a 405 gr LFP at 1185 fps. With a 120 yard zero it is 5" high at 50 yards, with a maximum mid range trajectory if 5 1/2" at 65 yards, 3 3/4" high at 100 yards and 5" low at 150 yards. At 150 yards its going 985 fps and has 873 ft pounds of energy. That's plenty of penetration, momentum and energy for even a large mule deer.

I have tang sights on mine so dialing in more range isn't an issue and I'm not opposed to a 180 yard shot with that load. At 180 yards it has 962 fps and 832 ft pounds. My main concern with longer range shots with the .45-70 is that the time of flight gets long and I'm a big believer in the half second rule, which limits this load to 180 yards.

If you go with a modern smokeless load - a 300 gr JHP at 1900 fps, the 5" point blank range goes out to 185 yards and the half second flight time is pushed out to 260 yards, but you have to ask if you really need that extra range and extra recoil that goes with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Model 52 Your post cleared up some things I couldn't visualize... Thank you! But you lost me with your half second rule; what is the half second rule??
 

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Model 52 Your post cleared up some things I couldn't visualize... Thank you! But you lost me with your half second rule; what is the half second rule??
The idea behind it is that a half second is the time it takes for a deer, antelope , elk, etc to spook and take a step forward when the shot is fired, The end result ends up being a gut shot animal.

Muzzle flash, birds taking flight near the shooter, etc are things that can spook the animal.

It's also part of the basis for the "400 yard rule", as 400 yards is about the 1/2 second time of flight for "modern" hunting cartridges like the .30-06, .308, .270 Win, etc.
 

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I'm also in agreement that you don't need to exceed black powder .45-70 velocities to hunt deer at practical lever gun ranges.
If you want to limit your levergun's 'practical range' to that of a traditional muzzle loader, that statement makes sense. If you want it to have the practical range of that of even turn of the century smokeless lever guns like the Winchester 94 and Savage 99, then you have to load it up to the 1,800 to 2,100 fps level. Whether the recoil is worth it is a completely personal decision.
 

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I got rid of my 1886 Carbine long ago because of the recoil. And No, I'm not about to shoot on with the butt plate on my upper arm. Both my 1886 rifles are comfortable to shoot all day with 400 gr bullets running 1500-1600 fps even with their sharper butt plates. And shooting them by resting the forearm across my forearm holding onto a 4x4 post standing. The key is to hold the butt firmly against the shoulder. Leave a gap there and they'll bite you everytime. Factory 300 gr loads ? That was like shooting a 22 in the 1886 rifle. I've got a 1894 BB carbine in 444 and it's murder too with full house 300 gr loads.
 

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+1 on proper technique shooting 1886 with crescent butt plate.
What works for me is tucking the lower tip of the butt plate into my arm pit.
This places the upper tip above my shoulder and minimizes felt recoil. This had never bruised or cut me. It took only one session on a bench rest to work this out.
I have shot 450 grainDG hand loads at 2150 fps and the rifle just rises up and back down right on target with no pain.

Miroku 1886 .45-90 9.5 pounds unloaded.

+1 on reasonable loads for deer and hogs. Factory 300 45-70 grain ammo at around 1800 fps will do the job nicely.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks Ride-Red!! And everyone else for sharing all the info to lessen the recoil!! Greatly appreciated, I hope to get out this week end and give them all a try!!
 

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For the money and the fit, / case color finish, I am a fan of the Uberti.
My 45-70 came with a cresent stock which I changed to a shotgun style.
Actually enjoyed the process of finishing the wood.
Although I think you can get the shotgun butt straight from the factory.

Google Texasmac for a lot of info on the HiWalls if you are not familiar.
He is a great source and generous contributor.

I believe the Uberti's are patterened after the original HiWalls. The newer production runs
by Browning / Miroku and Winchester have a internal mechanism that is more complex then the original.

Old gun disassembly (IMO) should be simple.

If I were to buy another HiWall (new repro), it would be the Uberti again, next time with their DS Trigger and the shotgun butt..

That being said, I did a load development for a friends Browning M78 Highwall 45-70. It was a consistent 1 moa rifle w 72 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 FG-36 inch drop tube, .12 compression 457125 bullet (510grns) , FED 150 pistol primers, under powder newsprint disk, grease cookie, Paul matthews lube,
1205 fps at the muzzle..
Now that is a beautiful accurate rifle...

PS, I still use a recoil pad on my shoulder with those 500 plus grain projectiles.

I was reading Red-Rides thread and picked up a bunch there. I have the Browning 1886 SRC made by Miroku (sp) and I love it but the cresent but plate hurts to shoot and I don't want to to cut the beautiful stock for a recoil pad!! Never bought a shoulder pad on the way home from the range before:eek: So, I was thinking that if I got the Perdirsoli or the Uberti the lil extra weight from the longer barrels would help?? I just can't get past the idea of paying for a wannabe that costs more than the Winchester. I'll be starting to reload when my press comes in and I already have the dies....Plus I have read not such good press on the Peridirsoli??? So I'm stuck but ready to buy as soon as I can make up my mind:eek:
I have only shot the Winchester 300gr JHP and the Remington 300gr SJHP factory stuff n don't consider myself a sissy but that cresent but plate must amplify the recoil:D I primarily punch paper or steel to a max of 500 yards so any and all suggestions would be welcome!! Thanks in advance
 

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Stop shooting crazy high velocity hunting loads that beat you to death. Try some tamer loads made for the Trap Door, like the Remington 405 grainers. All you need is a 405 to 435 grain bullet going about 1200-1400 fps to punch paper or kill anything you hit with it. Better yet, learn to reload & shoot cast lead bullets & really have some fun. Check Beartooth's site about cast bullet loading techniques. No reason what so ever to take a beating shooting the 45-70. All you have to do is shoot the right loads. I shoot out to 800 yards with a 420 grain cast leaving the barrel @ 1350 fps with a rifle that has a "Crescent" buttplate with no ill effects. With a PAST pad it's a puddy cat to shoot. A PAST recoil pad strapped to your shoulder is a much better solution to reduce felt recoil than the ugly "slip-on" pads, IMHO.
Take Hawkeye Hunter's advice. I've owned, hunted and reloaded for over 35 years for the .45-70, and until most recently, have only owned original Trapdoor Springfields (or replica's of). I can't begin to count the number of deer and some elk that have fallen to them. I've always used cast 405 grain slugs at between 1100-1300 fps depending on if I'm using a carbine or rifle and I've never had an animal get away. Granted the useful range is below 150 yards, but even with the hotter factory load of 1800 fps with the 300 grain bullet, you've only extended your useful range by 25-50 (tops) yards. Even with my modern Marlin or Uberti Highwall, I keep the velocity about the same. The difference being that in the newer ones I can use jacketed bullets.
 
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