New to this forum--Thanks for letting me join you guys!! The latest Speer manual list the 3 levels of 45/70 loadings. I have recently purchased a new Winchester 1886 TD, and have read that they are as stong or even stronger than the Marlins 45/70. My question is, why aren't the 1886 loadings listed with the highest level along with Marlin,Ruger, ect.? Thanks in advance--DDD
45/70 & the 3 levels of data ?
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DDD,
Your Winchester "should" be in the second group with the other leveractions (MARLINS INCLUDED) The top level loadings are for the fancy single shots like the Ruger # 1 and #3. If I have made a mistake, someone will be righ by to correct me
You could also check out MarlinTalk since some of those guys have a whole stable full of 45-70's and will LOVE to argue the fine points of your rifle 8*)
Just remember, a few thousand tons of buffalo were killed at some pretty long range with the lower loading levels. The 45-70 is a hammer and there is not that much killing power gained by loading in the single shot range. Dead is Dead. If you want to make steel buffalo sing at at thousand yards, you may want to look into the long barreled singleshot and gain some velocity to flatten out the trajectory (not by much though, you are realy lobbing a lump of lead with the ol girl)
Scotty
Your Winchester "should" be in the second group with the other leveractions (MARLINS INCLUDED) The top level loadings are for the fancy single shots like the Ruger # 1 and #3. If I have made a mistake, someone will be righ by to correct me
You could also check out MarlinTalk since some of those guys have a whole stable full of 45-70's and will LOVE to argue the fine points of your rifle 8*)
Just remember, a few thousand tons of buffalo were killed at some pretty long range with the lower loading levels. The 45-70 is a hammer and there is not that much killing power gained by loading in the single shot range. Dead is Dead. If you want to make steel buffalo sing at at thousand yards, you may want to look into the long barreled singleshot and gain some velocity to flatten out the trajectory (not by much though, you are realy lobbing a lump of lead with the ol girl)
Scotty
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You WILL NOT find a consensus on what pressure levels are 'max' for the various .45-70 'heavy' loads.
Read several different loading manuals, seems like everyone has their own limit/tolerance. Hodgdon, Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Lyman, and others all have suggested data.
However, some do list the Win 1886 as suitable for the same 40,000 CUP loads as the Marlin. Makes sense, if anything a modern 1886 should be able to handle more as it was originally chambered in some 40,000CUP smokeless rounds with the same case head size as the .45-70. In fact, the 71 Winchester is basically an 1886 action, but for the .348 Win which is actually a bigger case head than the .45-70, again in the neighborhood of 40,000CUP.
Probably the reason for the difference listings is that even with a good strong design, some of those 1886s have been around since, well, 1886, and metalurgy wasn't as exact back then. Plus who knows how they have been treated. So be cautious with original 86s.
But a modern reproduction should be about as strong of a lever gun as you can buy.
Read several different loading manuals, seems like everyone has their own limit/tolerance. Hodgdon, Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Lyman, and others all have suggested data.
However, some do list the Win 1886 as suitable for the same 40,000 CUP loads as the Marlin. Makes sense, if anything a modern 1886 should be able to handle more as it was originally chambered in some 40,000CUP smokeless rounds with the same case head size as the .45-70. In fact, the 71 Winchester is basically an 1886 action, but for the .348 Win which is actually a bigger case head than the .45-70, again in the neighborhood of 40,000CUP.
Probably the reason for the difference listings is that even with a good strong design, some of those 1886s have been around since, well, 1886, and metalurgy wasn't as exact back then. Plus who knows how they have been treated. So be cautious with original 86s.
But a modern reproduction should be about as strong of a lever gun as you can buy.
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Think the Ruger #1 and perhaps the Siamese Mausers (depending on how they were converted) would take pressure in the 50K range. The Marlin and the Modern Winchester repro. should work at a 40K level with few problems (other than eating brass rather rapidly). The old BP actions sholud be limted to about 20K and the modern repros. of the old actions, while they use better steel, still retain some of the features that made them weak...limit them to 25K and be happy.
In other words, believe there should be 4 levels...or a level 1 1/2 inserted.
Its a bit more than the pressure level, have to consider the head size of the round running at that pressue. As an example, the T/C Contender will run for years and years at +50K in .223 head size, but you start to ruin frames when you run a bigger head size to the same pressure.
In other words, believe there should be 4 levels...or a level 1 1/2 inserted.
Its a bit more than the pressure level, have to consider the head size of the round running at that pressue. As an example, the T/C Contender will run for years and years at +50K in .223 head size, but you start to ruin frames when you run a bigger head size to the same pressure.
What Mike stated is correct. I'm sure that some cartridge manufacturers don't mention the '86 simply because of liability issues concerning the use of these loads in old, pre- 1903 guns. The nickle steel '86 Winchesters were designed to handle higher pressure cartridges in the 40k+ range. These rifles were produced primarily in 33, 45-70 and 45-90WCF. Other calibers could be ordered with nickle steel barrels, but, these are somewhat scarce. Even though all calibers but 33, 45-70 and 45-90 were supposed to have been dropped in 1910, later guns can be found that are chambered for the older BP cartridges. The 50-110WCF was available right up the end of series in 1935. The 50-110 is the parent case for the 348WCF of the 71 model.
The Miroku 1886 rifle will handle ANY 45-70 load with ease. At 7 1/2 lbs the recoil can be a bit on the heavy side, though.
The Miroku 1886 rifle will handle ANY 45-70 load with ease. At 7 1/2 lbs the recoil can be a bit on the heavy side, though.
N.E.F. 45/70 Load Level?
My pet loads for this rifle are either a Remington 405 JSP or a LEE 405 grain cast of wheelweights ontop of 46 grains of IMR 3031. And the LEE 340 cast ontop of 51 grains of Reloader 7. The 405 is superbly accurate to "way out yonder", and the 340 is great for rabbits on up to deer and hogs. I even use the 340 ontop of 14 grains Unique for plinking loads. In your exalted oppinion; are my pet loads too warm for this gun???
My pet loads for this rifle are either a Remington 405 JSP or a LEE 405 grain cast of wheelweights ontop of 46 grains of IMR 3031. And the LEE 340 cast ontop of 51 grains of Reloader 7. The 405 is superbly accurate to "way out yonder", and the 340 is great for rabbits on up to deer and hogs. I even use the 340 ontop of 14 grains Unique for plinking loads. In your exalted oppinion; are my pet loads too warm for this gun???
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Doc,
One of the more knowledgeable members can tell you for sure.I shoot some a bit hotter than that in my B.C. H&R with the 32"tube with no signs of pressure in the brass.Although the 560gr. loads show pressure signs on my shoulder.My advice to you is ask UncleNick this guy is something else and its to where you can understand it..........
One of the more knowledgeable members can tell you for sure.I shoot some a bit hotter than that in my B.C. H&R with the 32"tube with no signs of pressure in the brass.Although the 560gr. loads show pressure signs on my shoulder.My advice to you is ask UncleNick this guy is something else and its to where you can understand it..........
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Well, one thing for sure, shooting any level load from a steel butplate .45-70 is exciting, and the level 1 loads would be way more than I wanted to deal with.
I had a Ruger #3 for a while, and I wish I had purchased the .22 Hornet version, the .45-70 was more than enough with factory loads. My hat os off to the guy that can feed one of those a box of 50K, with any bullet up front.
I had a Ruger #3 for a while, and I wish I had purchased the .22 Hornet version, the .45-70 was more than enough with factory loads. My hat os off to the guy that can feed one of those a box of 50K, with any bullet up front.
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TMan, I had a Ruger #3 in 45-70. Still have my #3 in .22 Hornet.
I sold the 45-70 off to finance my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps repro 45-70 but not until we had played with the #3 loaded heavy.
You're right, a 6 1/2 pound rifle with 405 grain lead bullets at 1800 fps has some stout recoil. Not too bad standing up but an eye opener off the bench.
I probably should have kept it though. Havent seen another since.
I sold the 45-70 off to finance my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps repro 45-70 but not until we had played with the #3 loaded heavy.
You're right, a 6 1/2 pound rifle with 405 grain lead bullets at 1800 fps has some stout recoil. Not too bad standing up but an eye opener off the bench.
I probably should have kept it though. Havent seen another since.
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MM, the sad part was they had a run of .30-40's on order, and I was impatient.
Still kick myself for that one.
Too bad they discontinued the No.3, it be ideal for .38-55's, .30-30's, .357/.44M and such, and of course Hornet or Bee type's. It was really a nice little rifle, except it killed at both ends.
Not only are the newer 1886 take down rifles equipped with a steel butt plate, those are crescent steel butt plates....ouch!
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