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I have tried unsuccessfully to research this and frankly, I give up. Perhaps I should stop thinking about this. I’m really fond of the .45 acp. I generally carry one for self defense in various configurations. My wife says I accessorize.

There are of course different weights of projectiles from 185 to 230 grains. In that respect which is best for stopping a threat? The lighter grains feel like they recoil less, but is it the heavier bullet that does the trick or the diameter that causes the larger permanent wound channel?

I absolutely believe that accuracy is the best way to stop an attack and that caliber is probably not relevant. So is bullet weight relevant?
 

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I’ve been a handgun shooter for around fifty-five years now, and I was a handgun instructor and competitive target shooter for around twenty-five years. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do know this: Accuracy isn’t the number one or even number two most important consideration in a defensive handgun. Reliability is number one. Repeat, number ONE. If it doesn’t work or fire, it’s next to worthless. The next most important thing about carrying a defensive handgun is your ability to use it under stress. I shot major competition shoots for many years and I’ve seen many, many good target shooters fall apart under the stress of just shooting in competition when they had a crowd watching and were shooting against others for the win. Even minor adrenaline dumps make your shots go wildly off the mark. I’d suggest you consider you enter some type of match competition where you use your carry gun for the match. It will make you shoot your gun at targets while under stress (stres is stress even when it’s just competition) and will require magazine changes while shooting the course of fire. You might even rethink the gun you’ve chosen after a few matches. Good luck.
 

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Well...your question will generate some discussion and some disagreement. The answers will depend on the theory being used.

The Hatcher rating for example dates back over 100 years and it holds that it is diameter and momentum (mass times velocity) that mostly does the work with point shape having some effect. If I recall correctly a round ball had a form factor of 1.0, with

0.9 Jacketed Round Nose
1.0 Lead round nose and unexpanded soft point
1.05 Small Flat Point
1.10 Large Flat Point and unexpanded hollow point
1.25 Lead Semi Wadcutter (and other “Keith Types”)

Hollow points and soft points were added later.

1.35 Jacketed Softpoint and Hollow point (expanded)

Hatcher’s relative stopping power formula it generally favored heavier bullets in comparisons like a 185 gr or 230 bullet of the same point type. It was an attempt to try to develop a formula that would account for bullet performance on live stock and cadavers that would then allow meaningful comparisons between different cartridges and loads.

Despite the extensive of terminal effects on living livestock and wound analysis of hI am cadavers, the Hatcher RSP fell out of favor.

Many folks, and many of them claiming to be “authorities“, place all their faith in ballistic gel tests and denigrate the data folks as using “anecdotal“ evidence. That’s a mistake as it fails to take into account the fact that the FBI‘s ballistic gel penetration standards were based on reports of officer and citizen involved shootings and the loads used. Looking at a large number of shoots they then determined which loads tended to be most effective in the real world and then tested them in ballistic gel to see how they performed.

The FBI then created its acceptable performance envelope based on the performance of those rounds that showed good real world effectiveness. The ballistic gel results are thus just used for comparison of relative performance between different loads, and against a performance standard that correlates with good performance in real world shoots. It’s also convenient as it is repeatable due to the use of a consistent test media.

The slower kids in the class miss the fact that those gel penetration performance standards were developed based on analysis of real world shoots - data analysis of real world shoots. The data they themselves denigrate.

In truth both the data approach and the gel testing approach have serious limitations.

On the data side, there are a lot of factors that are not considered or that can only be considered in fairly broad terms given the limitations in the data collected. Where the individual was shot is a big wild card and at best you might be able to separate out torso hits from extremity hits.

There are also other factors that could, come into play such as lighter recoiling calibers being able to be fired with greater accuracy and or more rapidly. In some cases, those can cancel each other out. For example a shooter who can accurately place 3 rounds of 9mm in the vital zone in the same period of time he could place 2 shots in the same zone with a .45 ACP, may be just as effective with a 9mm, but the greater number of shots he is able to fire in the same period of time would make it appear as if the 9mm required more shots to stop the assailant. That may or may not be the case, and we don’t really know short of an autopsy and knowledge of what 9mm rounds hit first, and we won’t know that.


On the ballistic gel side, the weaknesses are that the acceptable performance range is based on data analysis of a large number of shoots with all the same limitations described above. Plus some FBI/Law Enforcement centered concerns such as wanting greater minimum penetration to ensure adequate penetration when shooting at fleeing felons from the side, etc where an arm or arm bone may need to be penetrated before the torso is even hit.

Way too many armed citizens regard the 12” minimum penetration as sacrosanct when it really doesn’t have much relevance to the face to face aspect angle that occurs in almost all legitimate armed citizen self defense shoots. Again for the slower kids in the class that means if the assailant is fleeing and you shoot at him, you are most likely soon to be referred to as “the defendant“, followed shortly there after as “inmate”.

There’s also the potential problem of over penetration where that 18” maximum could still be excessive in a face to face engagement.

And of course actual people don’t have much in common with a homogeneous block of ballistic gel.

—-

Personally, I do my own ballistic gel testing with the loads and handguns I carry as I want to know wha kind of gel performance I really get in my specific situation. Some hollow points have narrow expansion envelopes and how fast they expand at a specific velocity also has a big impact on their actual penetration. Others have much wider envelopes and work well in a wider range of barrel lengths.

For example, these Sig 124 gr V-crown bullets were all fired with the same powder charge in three different barrel lengths, with velocities ranging from 1050 fps to 1350 fps, yet consistently penetrated 16-17”. The higher velocity just resulted in greater expansion, with the expansion from a 3” barrel still being acceptable.




At the other end of the spectrum was this 124 gr Berry’s Hybrid hollow point. They are very attractive from a price perspective and you could easily do all your shooting with your carry load. They are however very, very velocity sensitive.

For example the bullets I tested penetrated between 18.5” and 19” when fired from a 3” barrel at 1049 fps and 1033 fps. They both lookEd like this one and their total failure to expand wasn’t inspiring. I could probably load and shoot both bullets again with reasonable accuracy.



However when fired from my 4” Kimber at velocities of 1097 and 1121 fps with penetrations of 10.5” and 12” and extreme expansion.



One of them was so flat it came apart when it was dug out of the gel. Berry’s indicates a velocity range for expansion and penetration of 1050 fps and 1150 fps, and that’s probably generous. If I were going to use this bullet for self defense I’d do extensive testing and load development to get reliable velocities right around 1100 fps and accept the probable 10” penetration. Berry’s isn’t mis representing the bullet (much) as it will perform quite well but will probably struggle to meet the FBI minimum penetration mark, which isn’t all bad as we’ve discussed why 10” is probably just as good as 12” in a face to face engagement - and it will definitely expand to a very impressive diameter.




Just for the fun of it I shot one out of my 8.9” MP5 at around 1350 fps and the result was pretty spectacular fragmentation with about 5” of penetration.




——-

.45. ACP wise it’s a lot like a .357 Mag where it’s not hard to find an effective hollow point load.

Below is a 9mm 124 gr XTP on the right for comparison purposes with a 185 gr XTP, a 185 gr Golden Saber and a 230 gr HST. (The 2nd and 4th unfired bullets are transposed.). They all penetrated 14” - 16” with the differences being the expansion going from adequate for the XTP to excellent for the HST. I would not want to get shot with any of them.




——


My take on it is:

1) Carry the largest caliber handgun you can comfortably carry all day and fully conceal;

2) Carry ammunition that is 100% reliable in your hand gun. Terminal performance is secondary. 12“ to 16” penetration with reliable expansion is probably ideal, but I would not turn my nose up at 10” of penetration with excellent expansion.

3) Be able to shoot it well enough to put 3 rounds in a 10” circle at 10 yards in 2.5 seconds. That’s roughly 1.5 seconds to draw from concealment and fire the first shot, with the next two aimed shots leaving at 1/2 second intervals.
 

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I’ve been a handgun shooter for around fifty-five years now, and I was a handgun instructor and competitive target shooter for around twenty-five years. I don’t claim to know everything, but I do know this: Accuracy isn’t the number one or even number two most important consideration in a defensive handgun. Reliability is number one. Repeat, number ONE. If it doesn’t work or fire, it’s next to worthless. The next most important thing about carrying a defensive handgun is your ability to use it under stress. I shot major competition shoots for many years and I’ve seen many, many good target shooters fall apart under the stress of just shooting in competition when they had a crowd watching and were shooting against others for the win. Even minor adrenaline dumps make your shots go wildly off the mark. I’d suggest you consider you enter some type of match competition where you use your carry gun for the match. It will make you shoot your gun at targets while under stress (stres is stress even when it’s just competition) and will require magazine changes while shooting the course of fire. You might even rethink the gun you’ve chosen after a few matches. Good luck.
I’ll second the recommendation to shoot in tactical matches. Learning to shoot under stress and time pressure is important. It won’t be nearly as intense as actually getting shot or being confronted with an imminent threat, but it’s as close as you can get, and it encourages repeated, regular practice.

Most tactical matches are conducted under a set of rules that often have some pretty stupid assumptions, like the nearest targets presenting the greatest threat and thus must be engaged first, as well as general stage requirements like two shots on each target, or one shot on each, making a second hit on the targets in some specified order, (right to left, left to right, back to front, etc.)

The positive side of that is having to learn to think and remember under pressure and that can be very difficult.

The negative side is that you don’t necessarily want to default to those artificial practices in a real world shoot, but rather continue to think and assess the threat(s) as the engagement develops.

It’ll be more productive if you also shoot your personal defense handgun and don’t get sucked into any form of race gun. It’s gotten better over the last 30 years in terms of production classes, but it’s not perfect. Just remember you are there to learn and improve your speed and accuracy, not win.
 

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“Just remember you are there to learn and improve your speed and accuracy, not win.”

Nothing wrong with doing both. I’d rather win than come in second in a gunfight or a match. My “handle” of NSB stands for NoSecondBest, my team’s name for many years of match shooting….and winning. No one wants to be in second place.
 

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Me personally I love steel framed pistols and grew up shooting my PawPaws 1911 and his 357 Mag. I have had many 1911's over the years and carried a full size 45acp until last year when my buddy convinced me to try out his Beretta 92fs and I now have a 92X RDO as as my CCW...But I love the 45acp and have cast tons of them I go with the middle of the road approach with target ammo and use 200 grain swc's to practice with, but for carry purposes and to stop threats I have always went with good ol +P Hydra-Shoks because 235 grains has been proven over time and they're my personal favorite. I think it really depends on the threats response to the trauma that occurs when taking a bullet to determine how quickly they'll go down. For the purposes of creating the wound cavity. I'm on the side of the heavier they are the more lead to expand out further than the lighter ones. If I'm going to shoot lower than 200 grains to get more speed or less recoil I'll just shoot a 9mm. Plus if you go with subsonic seismic rounds you can shoot 185 grain 9mm bullets.

“Just remember you are there to learn and improve your speed and accuracy, not win.”

Nothing wrong with doing both. I’d rather win than come in second in a gunfight or a match. My “handle” of NSB stands for NoSecondBest, my team’s name for many years of match shooting….and winning. No one wants to be in second place.
Second place is the first loser
 

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What I'VE gleaned from my (probably biased) research into "stopping power" has established the following set of minimae for defensive carry:
1.) No smaller than 9mm in diameter.
2.) No lighter than 160 (158) gr.*
3.) No slower than 1000 f/s.*
4.) Where possible, no LRN nor FMJRN projectiles.#
5.) No fewer than 6 rounds between reloads.

* As long as the product of numbers 2 and 3 equals or exceeds 160,000, a 158/160 gr. projectile is not a hard and fast requirement. I suspect that a 125 gr. projectile at 1280 f/s or a 115 gr. at 1392 f/s would penetrate just as well as a 160 gr. projectile at a true 1000 f/s.
# If bore diameters are .400" or greater, the restrictions against LRNs and FMJRNs aren't hard and fast. If the defender believes they enhance reliability, so be it, but FMJFPs or LRNFPs are likely as reliable as the RNs.

The ballistics described above are what Hatcher described as being 90% likely to stop a determined attack, if the round hits the upper thorax. They are not safely obtainable in any 9x19P pistol with which I am acquainted. They are barely obtainable in 2" barreled .38 Special revolvers, but the loads involved are hot, hard on the gun, and should only be used in the defense of life. They are somewhat more easily obtained in 3" barrels, but the loads involved are still above SAAMI Max for .38 Spl. +P.
A 160 gr. LSWC with a velocity of 1000 f/s is just within the capabilities of a 4" barreled .38 Spl. +P+. An identical weight and shaped projectile in .40 caliber need only have a muzzle velocity of 800 f/s to deliver a similar effect. Obviously, more velocity is better, assuming no control issues, but the comparison illustrates the contribution made by larger diameter projectiles. One of the pioneering gun writers touted large projectiles as having the capability to "let a lot of air in, and a lot of blood out". They weren't wrong.
My conclusion is, the two best determinants of successful incapacitation, in the context of defensive pistol rounds, are momentum (NOT kinetic energy) and bore area. Improved projectile configurations may, indeed, contribute to better odds of incapacitation, but they depend on a certain minimum velocity as well as collision with a sufficiently tough medium, for their effect. I prefer bullets which disrupt tissue due to their shape, as launched from the pistol. A semi-wadcutter (hollow pointed if one wishes) with a wide meplat would seem the best compromise between tissue disruption and penetration. Some auto pistols feed them better than others, but most pistols can be polished to feed most projectiles. Revolver reloads with sharp-shouldered SWCs can be problematic. Generally, I've found that Round-Nosed Flat-Point projectiles are almost effective or as effective, at least on game animals and vermin.

Competing with one's EDC in timed action matches is not merely good practice, but it can also serve as a "shake-down" run for equipment. If something messes up in competition, it will likely happen in the real world. Better to learn of it in friendly competition than in the heat of conflict.
Too much can be made of this "first place" aspiration. Ultimately the only persons against whom we compete are ourselves. If, in the process of competition, one's technique improves enough to save their life when shooting for keeps, THAT is the prize of highest value.
 

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Such questions can be answered by throwing rocks or shooting round balls in a wrist rocket just as easy. ...or by observing intercepted bugs between the eyes on a motorcycle. :)
Speed and mass expressed as energy is the same in all of them.
 

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According to Duncan Macpherson

mW = AρφX = (πd^2/4)ρφX, where

mW = the wound mass

A = the cross sectional area

ρ = the target density

φ = the bullet effectiveness factor

X = the penetration

He analyzes this in his book, Bullet Penetration.
 

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The Miami/Dade FBI Shootings in the early 80's brought a lot to light. The ammo they had chosen for their 9mm was "probably insufficient. " A 38 +P would have probably also have been. There is more that went wrong there than can be covered in a single thread here. I was never a fan of the 125 gr. Silvertips they carried in .357 and would have much rather had a 158 full house load.

As has been said, the largest diameter/heaviest bullet you can comfortably handle (and conceal) is your best choice. I CC'd a 45 ACP for years with no issues after shooting close to 150K rounds with a 225 gr. SWC. I moved to 9mm and now 380. I've carried a bunch revolvers too.

An earlier poster placed accuracy low on what was needed....I agree to disagree. You need to be able to shoot whatever you are firing in an accurate manner. As I age, I am seen as less of a threat, so I am more likely to take cover and fire from a defensive position rather than an offensive one. Not my ideal scenario, but it is what it is.

Practice with what you carry and be confident is my biggest suggestion. A gunfight is probably never a pretty picture and you definetly do not want to get the silver medal.
 

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There's no way to predict the size, tenacity or what an adversary will be wearing. Buy a gun that will digest any factory ammunition and load the magazine with a variety of ammunition.
Avoid bad parts of town, don't answer your door anytime of day unless you see who it is and know them and don't go in convenience stores late at night.
My father always told me nothing good happens after midnight, be home, great advice.
Your first line of defense should always be avoidance, which starts with situational awareness.
 

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“Just remember you are there to learn and improve your speed and accuracy, not win.”

Nothing wrong with doing both. I’d rather win than come in second in a gunfight or a match. My “handle” of NSB stands for NoSecondBest, my team’s name for many years of match shooting….and winning. No one wants to be in second place.
My point here was to use the gun you plan to carry rather than use a race gun.

But I suspect you knew that.
 

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Bullet weight is always relevant because it's a factor of bullet performance. The slower .45acp often suffers from poor expansion even from some well known ammo manufacturers. The 185 grain was chosen to greatly increase the chance of proper expansion, especially out of shorter carry guns.

I would highly recommend watching the multitudes of videos out there on YT and compare the results. Personally I don't put much stock in the bare block gel tests. They show a best case scenario. It's extremely common to have bullets perform beautifully in bare gel and far less so when going through a heavy cloth barrier first. I prefer videos which show both bare and cloth barrier results.

I'm a huge fan of the .45acp and have carried it a lot over the years. If you can find a 230 grain bullet that expands reliably through a cloth barrier and gets good penetration through the length barrel you carry then that's a great choice. Those can be tricky to find for guns in 3" range though. Hence the 185 grain bullets becoming popular. There's also the option of designs like the Underwood Xtreme Defender or ARX that don't expand at all but still provide very good penetration and wound cavities. Lately I've been doing a lot of research on these as I'm considering them for my 3" 9mm and 3" 1911. I haven't made any decisions yet but they look very impressive so far.
 

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Iam betting most folks that are not high on meth or something similar could be stopped in their tracks with a .22 short in the foot. For me just having a gun pointed at me would be enough.
 
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