[Kev7griz]

I am looking for an Elk round with a slightly different twist.
I am looking for one load for Elk, Mule/Whitetail deer, and smaller game. Plus it must be sub sonic (980 – 1080 fps). It is for a 45 Colt in a Thompson Contender with a 10” inch barrel. Speed of Sound is roughly 1125 fps so 1100 fps is a little too close due to variations in velocities. My ears do not need to hear sonic booms nor do I need excessive recoil. I was thinking of the 285gr LMNGC as it has been given good reviews. The 300 gr. LFNGC is said to be a more accurate bullet with heavy 45 Colt loads. Is it a good choice for above velocities and goals? The smaller Meplat may not be the best on whitetail deer and smaller game. The 300gr WFNBP seems to be another good choice since the velocities do not require the added cost of a gas check, its Meplat is large that combined with the added weight might be a good combination.

So which do you think would be the best choice for clean kills, including accuracy? Plus do you have suggestions on powders and amounts to get in the ballpark, I would love to have a charge that at least fills the case to ¾ of capacity to eliminate the chance of double charges. I do have a chronograph so I will be able to determine bullet speed.


Thanks Kevin

 

[pisgah]

Any worry about sonic boom is wasted. If you've ever had a bullet pass close to you, the sharp snap you hear is all there is to the sonic boom. Disconcerting, for sure, but not dangerous to hearing. A 1000 fps load will produce a noise just as dangerous to your ears as a 1100 fps load.

 

[jmortimer]

I think your idea is "sound" and would sugget the 300 grain WFN PB with 10 grains of Unique should put you around 1,000 fps. I think you would be really happy with that combination.

 

[MikeG]

That sounds in the ballpark, if the bullets aren't seated too deep. Work up from about 8 grains or so to be cautious. You might be surprised at the velocities you get from a long barrel. There are a lot of different nose profiles on 300gr. bullets so it would be impossible to generalize.

I ran this through Quickload with Marshall's 300gr. WFNGC, and ten grains of unique was predicted to be about 30,000 psi but the velocity is suggested to be nearly 1,200fps. So, do start low.

 

[UnCruel]

A 1000 fps load will produce a noise just as dangerous to your ears as a 1100 fps load.

Unless he is also using a sound suppressor.

 

[jmortimer]

Load data had a 300 grain hard cast with 10 grains of Unique in a Dan Wesson 8" barrel an it was just over 1,000 fps. The extra two inches would probably be "too hot" for what the O/P desires. I load most evey .45 Colt load at around 9.2 grains which is what my powder dipper throws. That would probably be a sweet load for the O/P based on his parameters. That is the difference between "beer can" engineering and Quick Load. As usual I defer to moderator and Quick Load

 

[MikeG]

I agree that 9.2 gr. looks like it would be pretty darn close to perfect. As always, you have to test these things (carefully). While Quickload is a useful tool, it is not absolute.

 

[Kev7griz]

Wow Awesome replies so quick!

I appreciate the great and fast input. I never thought, I would have input this fast. Your replies are awesome!!!! I overstated the sound advantage of sub sonic loads, as I know to well that handguns can be extremely loud. I appreciate that you made me aware of my ill founded hope that subsonic loads would help!!! Since it seems that 1000 fps will provide enough power, if bullets are even realistic see below, I plan to stick with it.

I am very serious about using a powder charge that fills the case! It has to be a bulky powder charge. This alone may restrict me to using commercial rounds and not hand loading. IS THERE A POWDER THAT COULD WORK? Please tell me how much of the volume of the case is used with 9.2 gr of Unique, and what is the lowest load that would fill up more than 1/2 the case?

There are several things, I need to make clear and be honest about.

The 10" barrel, is the equivalent to roughly a 7" a revolver minus a flash gap. I am sure that the chamber is included in the barrel length. Plus it is not a Contender but a rifled 2 shot, side by side, so pressures are a major consideration.

Silly me is thinking on having an extra long chamber to handle 410 shot loads so adding to many variables and possible uses. I know all around things sometime do nothing well. But, I am hoping that it could be grouse gun, a back up to my gun in close quarters when I do not have my rifle handy, like having my rifle somewhere in a scabbard which is attached to a saddle animal. So this gun would always be attached to me even if I get off a startled saddle animal against my wishes, a rattle snake or cougar threatens my Mule, I literally walk right into a deer or elk or to a predator on a recent kill without a rifle. One of my deer kills had an unwanted visit a couple years ago. But, the pistol would mainly be for grouse and pests NOT a serious hunting gun.

The excessive jump of the bullet before reaching the rifleling will be detrimental to accuracy and reduce effective range considerablely. I do not even know if it would be responsible to shot it at 25 yards and be respectful to the game animal, only the pistol at the range will tell. I do have two chances since it has two selectable barrels. This may change the design of the bullet and load, may require a lot of hand on testing, and sever restrictions on its use. So this thread may be too soon. The speed is even less of a factor than muzzle blast around my saddle animal’s and my ears, a spooked saddle animal could result in a long walk to camp without a rifle.


A 410 with OOO buck loads may be better if the accuracy of a bullet is insufficient however each pellet is only 70 gr which seems too offer little stopping power, further restricting its use.

I Thank You all for your time and knowledge. I hope you are not mad at me for not being open with you in the first post. I was a little ashamed to mention my wide use wishes, but wanted to add this prior to any input. You were just too quick!

I apologize and thank you!

Kevin

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Well now you got us again. First you say it's a T/C Contender, which is a very strong gun and can handle heavy loads, now you tell us it's a different gun all together. If I'm guessing correctly it is a very flimsy little pot metal contraption that is questionable to fire at all. If that is the case, then all information given up to this point is null and void.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Are we talking about a longer version of this? If so I'd sure go very light on loads. Not only is the strength of the gun questionable but recoil will be awful in such a light gun with no grip to hang on to.

 

[Kev7griz]

Are we talking about a longer version of this? If so I'd sure go very light on loads. Not only is the strength of the gun questionable but recoil will be awful in such a light gun with no grip to hang on to.

I agree, but 410 loads are quite heavy themselves. You point are all good and it might not work. I do plan on improving the grips, adding a modern tigger guard and maybe some balance weight to get it so the recoil in workable. The 45 colt would rarely be used.

So do you have any ideas on starting loads, and have you shot the 4 inch double barrel version?

Thanks Kevin

 

[Kev7griz]

Unless he is also using a sound suppressor.

What type of legal sound suppressor? Where would I get one.

Kevin

 

[MMichaelAK]

Kevin, information is key and thats a game changer. Unless your intended firearm is rated for .45Colt I wouldnt go near it with anything but the .410 loads and definitely not a 300 grain bullet load.
I was looking for SAMMI spec 300 grain loads at one point myself but Id be firing them through revolvers rated as capable of such. Without knowing what your intended firearm is, it makes me too cautious to share since I dont want anyone to get hurt using info I provided.

 

[scott0116]

I agree, but 410 loads are quite heavy themselves.

.410 loads run @ 14,000 psi and standard .45 colt loads run at about 12,000 psi. This means that if you are indeed using the pistol coyote shows, or if it's a judge, you must use standard weight bullets and standard pressures as it is very easy to seat a bullet slightly too deep and when using Ruger type loads to start with it would turn into a dangerous situation in these guns. I would never consider a 300 grain bullet in one of those derringers.

 

[kludge]

Kevin, information is key and thats a game changer. Unless your intended firearm is rated for .45Colt I wouldnt go near it with anything but the .410 loads and definitely not a 300 grain bullet load.
I was looking for SAMMI spec 300 grain loads at one point myself but Id be firing them through revolvers rated as capable of such. Without knowing what your intended firearm is, it makes me too cautious to share since I dont want anyone to get hurt using info I provided.

MMichealAK, He has posted here in several places here looking for a load for this gun and appears to not want to take any of the good advice that is being offered.

Kevin, stick with standard pressure (14kPSI) .45 Colt loads in that gun. Also the chambering in .410 will lead to what amounts to a pressure leak, and you won't be able to get to the quoted velocities, and it could cause severe leading as well

As I said in the other post 8.5 gr of Unique is the MAX I would use in that gun with a 250-255gr bullet. Loads for a 285 or 300gr bullets will be EVEN LOWER, assuming that Unique will work very well at all with those bullets. 10gr or even 9.2 of Unique and a 285gr bullet will give you about DOUBLE the pressure of a standard .45 Colt load. That is certain to spell disaster. Using a steady diet of even 9.0gr of Unique and a 255gr bullet will loosen up a Smith and Wesson Model 25, and it will need work to bring it back into time. If you REALLY WANT to use a heavy bullet in your gun, use TrailBoss powder.

I would hate to see what would happen if the hinge on this thing opened up while firing a "Ruger Only" load. The loads quoted here are for Ruger/TC and will damage your gun, with perhaps detrimental effects to your health.

 

[Kev7griz]

Respectfully I have taken all the good advice I have been given on this site and that I have found on the web
PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT ANY GOOD ADVICE THAT I HAVE IGNORED - I WILL GLADLY CONSIDER IT

I trully appreciate all the concern and all the feedback. I mean it !!!

It is listed as a 45LC/410 and is made in the U.S by Leinald DD Double Barrel 11" - I think it is made in Tennesee. It has a effective barrel length of 8 inch as the chamber is included in the 10.5 inch stated. Yes I have waffled and not been up front with or correct with all my listed info, I appologise.

I received great advice. Like using Unique at about 8-9 grains (based on advice) and to use bullets less than 300g (based on advice) I have waffled between 265, 285, and 300 durring the process and did pick the 265 g Keith, once when thinking it was better based on advice. I am back to the 285 gr. (based on advice) and as I paid for a membership online that had posted reloading info including Hodgdon. I settled for the 285 since it was the only cast bullet above that I found some reloading info for.

I have been looking for a load for this gun. I have readjusted my pressure down to max of 12,000 (following advice) but no one seems to know what grains of powder to start with - I do not want a hot load

I do appreciate that no one has stated a firm answer to something they have not tried in person. That is trully the right way to precced with loads.

Several on this site, have listed 8-9 grains of Unique for 925-950 fps. as a ending load but did not include camber pressure. I have consider all the advice, But no one has told me a safe starting load - just estimates of loads not to exceed or would exceed safe limmits. Yes, I did post on the Cowboy forum but my post was moved.

I am not going to reload it till I know a safe staring load - that is my choice.

I thought at first there would be someone that could answer this with a solid answer and I have not got more than notes about other guns and no idea of a safe starting load for this gun at 14,000 -12,000 psi.

I am clueless about pistol powder but know that with rifle powders you can get hot loads by loading too low or high.
Reduced loads are not safe with some rifle powders.

I still have NOT got a safe starting load even for Unique and I do not want to guess as I am a Newbee. Trailboss seems to be too bulky and I have found no Hodgdon or any other reloading that lists safe starting loads for cast bullets in this range or percentages of the case they might fill.
For allmost all rifle loads they list starting loads!

I know people out there know exactly how much of a 45LC case is filled for a huge range of powders. On my thread asking what starting powder load will fill the case 30-50% I have not seen one post that info on that thread. I appreciate those posting the info that they can share but like many so of the info does not pertain to the post.

I have gotten a lot of advice and I trully appreciate it but it does not meet may reguirement to start reloading. Yes, I might be to carefull but I do not want hot gasses or worse in my face and eyes. That is only my choice.

Sincerely

Kevin

Thanks for all the feedback

 

[MikeG]

Well, part of the problem is that there are different bullet designs that will have the same weight. How much of the bullet is in the case is one of the most important factors in determining max pressure, and we don't have that info.

Having said that.... if your 265gr. bullet pretty well looks like the usual semi-wadcutter (or round nose) in having say 1/3 of the bullet out of the case, and 2/3 or so in it, then you aren't going to blow things to pieces with 8 grains of Unique.

Sometimes you do just have to start and see how it goes. Handloading is like that. If you have a chronograph, then maybe 900fps or so is what you should probably end up with, with that barrel length - I would estimate.

Even if I ran all of the dimensions into a program like Quickload, it is still an estimate. A very educated estimate, but you are going to have to put some powder in a case and try it out.

 

[Kev7griz]

Well, part of the problem is that there are different bullet designs that will have the same weight. How much of the bullet is in the case is one of the most important factors in determining max pressure, and we don't have that info.

Having said that.... if your 265gr. bullet pretty well looks like the usual semi-wadcutter (or round nose) in having say 1/3 of the bullet out of the case, and 2/3 or so in it, then you aren't going to blow things to pieces with 8 grains of Unique.

Sometimes you do just have to start and see how it goes. Handloading is like that. If you have a chronograph, then maybe 900fps or so is what you should probably end up with, with that barrel length - I would estimate.

Even if I ran all of the dimensions into a program like Quickload, it is still an estimate. A very educated estimate, but you are going to have to put some powder in a case and try it out.

Thanks MikeG,

The bullets are directly from BearToothB. So 8g is a safe starting load or should I start at 6g and go up to 900fps with the 265, see below?

sorry the way I did it it did not include the pictures, I am open to better ideas (I will consider them)

I do have a chronograph CED M2


45 Long Colt/.454 Casull 265g Keith PB

Over All Length .700 --- Nose To Crimp .370----- Meplat Dia. Diameters .350


45 Long Colt/.454 Casull 285g LMN GC

Over All Length .755 -- - Nose To Crimp .400 -- Meplat Dia.Diameters .340

 

[m141a]

that bullet [BTB] will give you excellent accuracy.
i load it to just under 1000fps,[actually about 855fps] and launch it from a Smith Mountain gun.

It NEVER fails to be astounding in regards to accuracy.

my load is 8 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays over magnum primers

 

[Kev7griz]

that bullet [BTB] will give you excellent accuracy.
i load it to just under 1000fps,[actually about 855fps] and launch it from a Smith Mountain gun.

It NEVER fails to be astounding in regards to accuracy.

my load is 8 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays over magnum primers

are you talking about a load for the 265 or the 285?