[m141a]

Hello all!

First let me say that if the first part of my question has been asked a dozen times or so please forgive me.
I received Marshall's bullets for my .45 about 2 months ago. The quality is of course, excellent. I chose to experiment with a few different weights and styles, but basically I chose the 265Keith, the 285gc, and the 300wfnpb.
Because I really wanted to work a load for the Smith Mountain gun, rather than the Blackhawk this time, I chose to keep them under 1000fps.
Choosing the 300, I loaded it over 20.0 gr. of Hodgdon's H110. [DOK's recipe] This flies thru my chrony just under 1000fps. Using the Ballistician's corner, I figured the ft.lbs. of energy to be around 666, given the speed of 1000fps.

This lead in brings me to my first question...I plan on using this load this November in the Vermont hardwoods, particularly for Black bear. Is this "enough" bullet to successfully stop a bruin without just wounding, considering I do my part. The thought of wounding and not quickly expiring an animal bothers me. I know it will work for deer.

Second, and last, but perhaps I should ask in the levergun section is, what experience has anyone had with loading the same load [300wfnpb] into a Winchester 94. [mine's the Trapper]
I've loaded the cartridge to the correct specs, 1.6", but when chambering a dummy round [no primer or powder] for fit, I find that this bullet is almost too long for the chamber. What I mean is the lead of the cartridge is making contact with the rifling upon closing the lever. Not wanting to create excessive pressures, should I seat the bullet a little deeper?
Sure hope someone can help!

Chris~

 

[MikeG]

Chris,

If the rounds will chamber and extract from your Win without any trouble, I wouldn't change the OAL. The bullet touching the rifling isn't going to create excess pressures with cast loads. Besides, your load is well under what a M94 will handle in this chambering, so a slight increase would not hurt anything.

I cannot say for sure what your load will do to a black bear. I can tell you that they will go through several feet of pig, at just a little more velocity. In this age of super-magnums, 1,000fps doesn't sound like much, but I would not volunteer to try to stand downrange and catch one either.

My suggestion is to try to work up some penetration tests at different ranges, either wet newsprint or water-filled jugs, or something. See what it does and limit your range accordingly. After all, no matter how fast it starts out, at some point the velocity drops off till it's below the threshold that is acceptable. So it's really more of a question of distance rather than muzzle velocity, plus of course the shooter's ability to place the shot correctly.

My gut feel is that it'll whack a black bear pretty good, even at 'only' 1,000fps. How about if you shoot an email over to Cor-Bon. I am pretty sure that they sell a load just as you describe, a 300gr. bullet at about 1,000fps. If customers have used it for hunting, that would be a great source of information. Nothing like actual results to confirm theory.

 

[m141a]

Mike:
I have, in fact, used the Corbon stuff and it's pretty hot!
On last year's hunt with the same rifle, the Corbon load went straight thru a 175lb 6 pointer at about 55yards, leaving a fist size exit wound in the deer. I will however, contact them to get their spin on it.

I figure the afore-mentioned (sp) load would do the job out to 75 yards, which is about the maximum distance in the area I hunt to have a obstrustion free shot. Not that I would want to go past say 125 yards with the .45 just using the irons, due to my eye sight. I will be going to the range on Thursday, I'll sight it a 100. I do know now that the hold over with a 50yd. zero for my gun is about 6-8".
As for penatration tests, it sounds like a great idea, but my range has a taboo about shooting anything but paper. Perhaps I'll bring a ruler to measure how deep into the sand backstop it goes; not realistic, but something is better than not at all. [grrrrrrrr]

Thanks for the assistance Mike, and if anyone has more to add, I'm always eager!
Chris~

 

[Gunnut45/454]

I was thinking of this same thing last knight

m141a
After running numbers and burning up a calculator over this same thing I would say your good to go out to about 50 yds.
I was molling over this for my up coming Mulely adventure, tring to get a load thats accurate and stout enough out to 100yds in my SRH 454 with 250/255 gr bullets. It just seems like I should be getting more or having more power in the loads than I see. But then I looked at the 44 Mag loads a couple of page ahead in the book and I see that them loads touted as Bear killers have less punch then my 45 LC loads!!
I too don't want to cripple a deer and loose it-been there done that don't ever want to do it again-worst feeling in my life


My feeling the .45 LC with a well made/cast bullet has all the stopping power you'll need if you put it where it needs to go!!
Like the man said" A man just gotta know his limitaions"

 

[m141a]

I'm willing to even 'load up' to Ruger Specs, say 1350fps, cause I've shot 'em before from the Winchester no problem. I was just trying basically to match handgun loads to rifle loads without having to go the route of using my SA this season. Don't get me the wrong way, the Ruger blackhawk I own is a handy little gun at 4 5/8", just wanted to go the DA route this time.
I have no doubt that in a pinch the Smith Mountain gun would fire all six "hot loads" into whatever I aimed at, but why stress the frame and internals. The answer seems to be load hot... +1000fps for the rifle, and load moderate...=<1000fps for the revolver. I'll just Mark the headstamps of the "hot" ones with the 'old ladies' nail polish or sumthin'.

Thanks for all the help guys, I knew i'd get it!!!
Chris~

 

[kciH]

How does that Blackhawk with a 4 5/8" barrel feel when you shoot a full power 45 Colt load out of it? Good God, my 7 1/2" Bisley has crisp recoil with the 12-1300FPS loads with the 300gr XTP-MAG bullet. I would just use your Ruger for hunting, if the trigger quality is what's holding you back and making you want to use the Smith, just get a trigger job. I think the recoil would have to be immense with the full power loads in that short of a Blackhawk. When I shoot the same loads in my short Blackhawk that I use in the Bisley, both .41's, the difference is night and day. Pleasant to shoot in the Bisley, and viscious in the short Blackhawk, and the 45 Colt +P+ loads would be unimaginable.

 

[MikeG]

Hick,

You're not understanding how a short-barreled Blackhawk is supposed to be used. What you do is, sneak up real close to the deer, then throw the gun at him! Head shots ought to knock one down for a bit....

I'm only about half kidding. Like you, I have a Bisley (7.5") .45 Colt, and it's recoil enough for me with the 300gr. and up loads. Have been contemplating a short Vaquero for a nice packing gun but just have not convinced myself that the recoil would be tolerable.... guess we'll see one of these days.

 

[m141a]

I believe that recoil, although substantial(sp) is a subjective thing.
In the Blackhawk, a 240 Grain Sierra JHC loaded with 23.2gr. of H110 produced just under 1420fps. from the 4 5/8 bbl. It was stiff, but managable, due to the way a S/A "rolls" in your hand during the travel of recoil. the same 240gr. JHC in the Smith MG (4") loaded with 9.0 gr. of Universal Clays travelled out of the bbl at right about 875fps. to me, the recoil in the Smith was more of a "push" than a "roll".
This whole thing really wasn't about hunting with the pistol, but taking down the bruin efficiently without just wounding. I'm gonna use the rifle for the hunt, but preferred a D/A revolver for "backup" in case of failure of the rifle for some reason. That cocking of a S/A under stress could be a little nerve wracking!!!!
Thanks for all your help!
Chris~

 

[Old Jim]

kciH,
I bet the difference in recoil you are feeling between the Blackhawk and the Bisley have more to do with the grip shape than the barrel length. When I got my 4 5/8 BlackHawk .41, I ran out and shot it with hot loads and the SA grip. It kicked my butt! Nothing pleasant about it.
I put Hogue rubber grips on it and it is a ***** cat.

 

[kciH]

I understand the difference in the grip shape, that's why the Bisleys are my favorite. I think the fact that a Bisley with a steel grip frame and an unfluted cylinder and longer barrel that all adds up to a 10oz wieght difference also help quite a bit. I know what you mean about the Houges, I put them on a 6 1/2" 41 Blackhawk and it made it much more pleasant to shoot, but I'm not real comfortable with them yet. If I like them I"ll put them on the 4 5/8 Blackhawk as well. I still think that a 4 5/8" 45 Colt with full power loads would be a BIG handful. Maybe it's because I've done most of my heavy shooting in single actions with the Bisley, but I don't like the way the Blackhawk grip slips up in the hand when shooting heavy loads.

 

[Old Jim]

kciH
I think your last sentence tells the story.
My limited experience with the big guns and the SA plowhandle grip is all bad. I can't imagine a .475 or .500 with that grip. I'm sure I would come away bloody.
I have asked on this forum for anyone who is a fan of the plowhandle grip to explain to me what I'm doing wrong with no takers as yet.

 

[Alan]

For Gunnut45/454

If you are shooting 45 Colt from your SRH 454, the two following loads have proven to be accurate at 100 yds and easy to shoot from my SRH:

24.5 gr H110/265gr GC LBT/WLP/Starline
27.0 gr H110/250 gr XTP/WLP/Starline

I tried magnum primers with both loads and varying powder weights (and varying powders)...I'll stay with WLP primers.

 

[Old Jim]

kciH,
Here's a website that will calculate recoil for you.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.htm

 

[m141a]

kciH:

Don't get me wrong, the .45colt hot ones in the 4 5/8" is definetely an attention getter, but I feel it's manageable
As far as the grip "feeling", yes the plow handle grip is not a comfortable as traditional DA revolver grips. I will say that it has been my experience that SAA grip style guns tend to roll on recoil.
To paint a mental image; when I squeeze the trigger on a hot load in the 4 5/8, it wants to bury the front sight in my forehead[ouch] you have to be prepared and aware to shoot these loads...................when I shoot a 1000fps load from the 4" Smith mountain gun, it's just more of a rearward push... than the rise of Blackhawk. I still believe it is because of the shape of the grip and frame.
I have deceided to use the Smith as an accompaniment to the Winchester, and to mark the loads with paint as not to put them in the wrong gun.

Chris~

 

[Old Jim]

Here's a website that has everything you will ever want to know about bullets and wounding. Good information but very lengthy.
http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html

 

[Coldfingers]

Chris,

I am also planning a hunt with the Smith Mountain Gun. My oldest son is treating me to a trip to Montana. I managed to secure a mule deer doe tag over the counter. This will be a good shakedown for the MG.

I carried that everyday this fall in camp and never once used it on a meat item. I guess the clients were shooting too good ;*)

I do not believe you will have trouble making a clean kill on a black bear with your loads. They are tough, but I believe that hogs are tougher and loadings in your range will make bacon out of most pigs.

I also use a 300gr handcast over H110 for deep woods carry. I went up to 21.2 grains before I stopped (I went up s-l-o-o-o-l-y I might add!)

I would not feed the Smith alot of these, but, if push ever comes to shove, they shoot well and make a hole. Recoil is manageable and MY GUN has proven that it will handle them without bits and peices flying in more than one direction.

I think that for the Mule deer hunt I will use a 255 Keith over some Blue Dot. Should be fun.

If worst comes to worst, my son has a new Marlin 45/70 "just like the ol' man's" that he says I can use when he has filled his elk and deer tags.

I look at those Trappers alot when I cruise the gunshops. Someday perhaps.

Scotty

Oh yeah....HiYa Alan! Glad you made it.

 

[m141a]

Scott;

Always great to hear from you again!
I had the same thoughts about the 300 load, I've only gone to 20.0 grains, the flash alone will vaporize anything in front of it!!!

I worked out a great load for my Ruger; the 265 keith with 22,8 gr. of H110. Also works in the Trapper real well. But then there's that SA vs.DA quandry....

If you look at my thread about 'Marshall's great bullets", check out the groups I shot with the 265 keiths and 8.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal clays. It moving 'bout 850-900, but a tack driver at 20 yards. I'll email you the pic.

Then there are the 285's I been working with... I think if there was ever a middle of the road, this one is it! This may work out to be the one load for all purpose in the Northeast. The 285 BTB GC over 21gr. of H110...hot but manageable to shoot from the revolver. Not a steady diet as you say!

I wish you well on your hunt. From what I hear mulies are rugged creatures and tough as nails. Big deer! Here in the northeast, we have dogs with antlers Vermont, where I hunt, the biggest I've seen has been just about 200lbs. Most go about 80-150 lbs.

Good luck, stay warm, and get one so as you can post some pictures!

Be well,
Chris~

 

[leadflinger]

Chris: I've shot 22.5 gr of H110 and a 300 gr Bullet from both my Smith DA and my Win mdl 94 for THOUSANDS of rounds. Killed Blk bear, and a moose in Ak with it . Neither the moose or the bear at 60 & 45 yds went more than a few steps.
On the moose( approx.1600#) I broke both shoulders and have the bullet sitting on my desk. the bear was a complete passthru.
Like the old commercial used to say JUST DO IT!

 

[alyeska338]

Well, here's my .02 worth, and I admit, I haven't looked at ballistics charts in the last 15 years or so. I've never put one ounce of faith in kinetic energy or Keith's formulas or the Taylor KO. If you put a bullet of sufficient construction and size deep enough into an animals lungs or heart, it will die. The 45 caliber slug is obviously of sufficient size and the Beartooth slug is of sufficient construction, so there is no need to worry about that. The next two variables concern velocity. Can 1,000 fps drive that slug deep enough into the animal you are hunting to achieve the necessary result? 1,000 fps second may not seem that fast compared to some rifle velocities, but it is still pretty dang quick and I don't think you would have a problem given the results other folks have had. I have never shot a black bear with a 45 caliber slug at 1,000 fps so I'm not positive, but I am positive I would try it - given the opprotunity of good shot selection. Next, is the velocity enough that it allows you to hit where you want to, as far as trajectory is concerned? Well, judging from the groups you posted on another thread, I'd say you know what you and your gun and loads are capable of. I'm not sure if I would take any raking shots at a distance till I had shot some game with this load, but it does sound capable.

Let us know how this turns out.

 

[m141a]

A bit of bad news....

First, let me say thank you to all that helped with this thread. We certainly received ALOT of valuble information concerning the old .45. I got alot of tips to help me along.

Unfortunately.... or fortunately, depending on your outlook, I went and purchased a 9 week old Lab pup in the hopes of having an upland flusher in a short time. He's a handful, full of vigor and very rambunctous! I can't in good mind leave the family with a house to run and a crazy pup! (well I could, but I'd be sleeping with the dog when I got home!) My family comes first. So my Vermont trip is cancelled, guess the bears got off easy this year. More dissapionted is my father than I, being he lives in Maine, and me in NJ. and we don't hunt much together.

But all is not lost... As we speak my father and I are planning a January of February Grouse hunt, Hopefully using the new lab to hunt 'em up! Between the new Lab pup and my new/used 20gauge mentioned in my shotgun post, we just might have some luck!!!!

Thanks again for all the advice on my favorite handgun caliber!

Chris~