Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I live in one of the stupid states for deer hunting. The last couple of years used an AR 450 Bushmaster. Every deer I shot from 35 to 110 yards have been one shot and the most tracking was 50 yards.
I would love to have a lever gun in this caliber and approached Henry and Marlin both said not enough interest. Ranger Point use to convert your Marlin for about 2K way out of my budget. Guess I will just dream
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Living in Texas where just about anything larger than a 22 long rifle is legal for deer, I do not fully understand the problem.
Is a 45-70 legal? A .405 Winchester? Exactly what are the cartridge restrictions for big game? :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
I tried to convince myself that I needed a 450 BM to play around with. I compared the ballistics of the 450 BM to the 44 magnum. If you are killing your deer under 150 yards, there is no significant advantage of a 450BM over a 44 mag. Past 150 yards there is some advantage, buth the BM is running out of steam quick and is really done (or should be) at 200 to 250 yards (well, at least in my opinion).

The 450 is a good round, but it is not a magic bullet. Take a look at some numbers I ran through the hornady ballistics sight using some numbers slightly backed off the max velocities.

I would by a lever of your liking in 44 mag and never look back. I am partial to 1894's. There is something about the shape and look of that action.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
I live in one of the stupid states for deer hunting. The last couple of years used an AR 450 Bushmaster. Every deer I shot from 35 to 110 yards have been one shot and the most tracking was 50 yards.
I would love to have a lever gun in this caliber and approached Henry and Marlin both said not enough interest. Ranger Point use to convert your Marlin for about 2K way out of my budget. Guess I will just dream
I live in the same stupid state and there is a very simple answer for your dilemma: Buy a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. For private land, you can shoot any load you want. On public land, trim cases by .120" and then load as per normal reloading manual data.

Every deer you shoot, from 35 to 110 yards, will be one shot and tracking will be minimal. The 35 Remington has been cleanly harvesting whitetails for about 100 years longer than the 450BM has been around.

For the distances given, a 45 Colt lever-gun would provide essentially the same results. The 35 Remington gives you about twice as much range, although that is rarely important in the Eastern deer woods. Still, if you see one 200 yards away, on the other side of the corn field, it's nice knowing your round is capable at that distance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,974 Posts
A lever in 45-70 gov gets you pretty close .
Wouldn't take much to make a rimed version of the 450 BM.
450 BM would be good fun .
Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
There is a cartridge created in Indiana that some called the 45 Libertarian. It was a 45/70, shortened to 1.800", making it legal for hunting on public lands in the Hoosier state. You had to switch to one of the faster powders suitable for that cartridge, but still use a fairly long bullet, in order for it to function from a lever-action. Most of the guys who liked it were shooting them from single-shot actions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
45-60

I have a thread here that I had the same issue and this is how I skind this cat.

https://www.shootersforum.com/big-bore-lever-guns/223386-1895-ss-45-70-conversion-45-60-a.html

Now I try for max performance so thats why I went the way I did. Some say if you cut a 45-70 back to your 1.80 in a 45-70 rifle it will work.

I use the Hornady Leverevolution monoflex 250 gr bullet and Bushmaster reload data with LiL Gun powder out of a Marlin 1895 you have a formidable gun out to 250 yds or so.

I get 2,135 fps with 38.5 gr of LiL Gun powder. You can also look at Hornady 9th edition reloading handbook on page 647 is load data just for the Marlin 1895 because it is a stronger gun than other 45-70.

Now I shortened my chamber to 45-60 1.89 from the 45-70 chamber of 2.11 so the bullet would not have such a jump to the rifling for better accuracy but others say their 45-70 with the cut down brass at 1.80 works fine.

I have both a 450 BM I get 2,137 fps out of a 16 inch barrel with a 225 gr Hyd FTX bullet
My 45-60 I get 2,135 fps out of a 20 inch barrel with 250 gr Hyd Monoflex bullet

I am getting 3/4 inch groups out of my 45-60 at 100 yards. I find the big trick for this accuracy is keeping the barrel clean of copper fouling. With my Marline 1895 it has the Micro rifling so it will get dirty faster so know your barrels rifling.

Good luck with your quest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Just read the rules for hunting calibers in Indiana and you are correct in just how stupid they are. I have to wonder just why these rules were created. Anyone in Indiana care to explain the reasoning behind it. I'll put the rules below for those who would like to know what they are:
Rifles
Rifles chambered for cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger, have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches, and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms, youth, reduction zones from Nov. 16-Jan. 31 (in zones where local ordinances allow the use of a firearm), and special antlerless seasons. These rifle cartridges can be used on public and private land.

Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .350 Legend, .358 Hoosier, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf. Full metal jacketed bullets are illegal.

Additional rifles can be used for deer hunting on private land only. During the firearms, reduction zone from Nov. 16, 2019 – Jan. 31, 2020 (in zones where local ordinances allow the use of firearms), youth season, and special antlerless season (where open), rifles that fire cartridges meeting the following requirements may be used to hunt deer on private land only:

The cartridge must have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 3 inches.
The cartridge must fire a bullet with a minimum diameter of .243 inches (same as 6 mm).
A hunter must not possess more than 10 of these cartridges while hunting deer.
Full metal jacketed bullets are illegal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
Just read the rules for hunting calibers in Indiana and you are correct in just how stupid they are. I have to wonder just why these rules were created.
I am from Ohio, and have similar but different stupid rules. I will attempt to to relay what I have learned over the years of discussion

The ODNR realizes that deer harvest numbers and interested hunters had been declining over the years. The use of shotguns, muzzleloaders and larger caliber handguns had been all that was allowed. This created some limitations. They felt allowing rifles would increase the harvest and participation. There is also a significant group of citizens who believe that if they allow rifles that Billy Bob will be out in a cornfield with a semi-auto M2 replica launching 50 cal projectiles and that they will get accidentally shot off their toilet while minding their own business. Now as crazy as that sounds, I bet at least a few of us knows at least one fellow who would shoot a whitetail with a 338 Lapua at 1500 yards. That scares the heck out of people who don't really understand firearms.

The legislature, who has to come up with all of these goofy laws are trying to please the ODNR and hunters while at the same time not have a march on Columbus of thousands of people afraid that hunters are going to murder all of the deer and accidentally shoot the entire human population with oversized firearms.

The thought was to use large bore, slower moving projectiles could not travel as far as higher velocity more long range projectiles but still allow hunters to harvest deer at the ranges that most midwestern deer are shot at with less recoil and cost. In layman's terms, if you really don't understand hunting and ballistics, it makes sense.

Now, the part that they really don't understand is bad hunting practices are going to put bullets in the wrong place. It does not matter if it is a 1os slug that traveled 5 miles when shot at a deer on the ridge line or a 190 gr 30 caliber bullet that travels 7 miles fired in the same manner.

I have tried to explain to a few people who thought there were going to be murdered watching TV. Fired on flat ground for instance at a deer aiming about 40" above the ground (I suppose about how far a deer's lungs are above it hooves) a shotgun slug hits the dirt if they miss in 200 yards +/-. A 300 winchester would hit the ground in 4-500 yards. So yep, it is a lot farther, but if the hunter is taking ethical shots, it is still going to hit the ground in the hunters sight. And if he/she is doing what they should (make sure of what is behind the intended target) there is still no danger to anyone.

If a hunter does take a bad shot (over a ridge line for example) and you get hit by the stray slug/bullet, why do you care if it traveled 2 miles or 4 miles? I imagine it is still going to hurt.

Indiana just added the last part of the rule for landowners a year or so ago. I guess the constituency feels that landowners are better shots than people who don't own land. Who knows.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
I'm guessing these are mostly flatlanders that have hardly a mole hill between them and their neighbors. That would explain their nervousness about shooters. Out here in the Pacific Northwest the deer are in mountainous country and we may not see them any closer than 400 yards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
There is quite a history behind Indiana's regulations on what cartridge a rifle used to hunt deer with can be chambered in. I'll list a few bullet points. (hehe)

* First hunt allowed only slug guns or muzzle-loaders, to limit effective range and keep harvest low. (1950's)

* Pistol-chambered rifles (PCR) introduced to help recruit young hunters (less recoil) and avoid long-range shooting. (Early 2000's)

* Original PCR regs allow cases up to 1.625" (445 Super Mag) but created confusion because 44 Mag was legal and 500 Mag was legal, but 460 S&W was not (too long).

* Second phase of PCR allowed cases up to 1.800" long. Lots of interesting wildcats, including the 35 INDY, my own modest creation.

* For one year, you could hunt with a rifle on public land, but only if the rifle shot a .243" or .308" bullet (not making this up...the regs were THAT dumb!)

* Most recent regs allow .243" and up, with case no longer than 3.000" on private land. Public land is still subject to the 1.800" PCR regulations.

Dumb, piled on top of dumb.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Those regulations do seem overly complex.

They remind me of some of the Oklahoma regulations on hunting black bear.
If you think hogs can mess up a deer camp (fences, tents, travel trailers, cabins, storage areas, feeders, etc) , Imagine what black bears can do. They can climb over, tip over, tear into, dig under just about any thing.
Southeast OK residents, hunters, outfitters, etc tell me there are way too many black bear in their part of the state (bear populations have reached the nuisance level) BUT the state does not allow bear hunting with modern firearms; bears may be hunted only with archery equipment and black powder/muzzle loader type rifles, so there are not enough hunters to manage the bear population. The legal hunting areas have just been expanded, but still no modern firearms. ????

I am hoping this will push excess bears south into Texas where we can take them and help OK solve their population problem. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
(quote from crs) "BUT the state does not allow bear hunting with modern firearms"

WOW, talk about making it dangerous to the hunter. Black bears have been known to attack when shot at and wounded.

Out here in Washington we went through a series of attempts to regulate hunting firearms. Years ago they listed a bunch of calibers that were not allowed but the list became so obsolete because of wildcats and new calibers coming out it became worthless and unenforceable. Next they tried limiting the Ft lb energy levels and said they all had to have a minimum of 900 ft lbs at 100 yards to be legal and a bullet dia of .240. That encouraged magnums and large calibers. THe 30-30 was barely legal. Then finally they gave that all up and now say it has to be a centerfire cartridge with a bullet diameter larger than .240. (That makes the .25 autoa legal deer cartridge and they know it) They basically gave up trying to stay current with calibers and threw their hands in the air and let the hunters decide what was best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
I live in the same stupid state and there is a very simple answer for your dilemma: Buy a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. For private land, you can shoot any load you want. On public land, trim cases by .120" and then load as per normal reloading manual data.
IIRC, the Hornady ammo with the FTX bullet has the brass trimmed shorter, is it short enough to qualify?

Unfortunately the southern lower peninsula here is a limited firearm zone too.....a feel good law that does nothing. PA did a study a few years ago and found no safety advantage of not allowing centerfires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
IIRC, the Hornady ammo with the FTX bullet has the brass trimmed shorter, is it short enough to qualify?

Unfortunately the southern lower peninsula here is a limited firearm zone too.....a feel good law that does nothing. PA did a study a few years ago and found no safety advantage of not allowing centerfires.
Texas has 22 centerfire and up.:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,269 Posts
IIRC, the Hornady ammo with the FTX bullet has the brass trimmed shorter, is it short enough to qualify?

Unfortunately the southern lower peninsula here is a limited firearm zone too.....a feel good law that does nothing. PA did a study a few years ago and found no safety advantage of not allowing centerfires.
Hornady does trim the brass of some cartridges that are loaded with the FTX bullet, and recommends the same for those who load their own ammo, but I don't believe the 35 Remington is one of those cartridges.

The southern LP regs are fairly close to Indiana's public land regs, but MI adds in the requirement for a straight-walled case, while Indiana allows cases to be bottle-necked.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,446 Posts
Hornady does trim the brass of some cartridges that are loaded with the FTX bullet, and recommends the same for those who load their own ammo, but I don't believe the 35 Remington is one of those cartridges.

The southern LP regs are fairly close to Indiana's public land regs, but MI adds in the requirement for a straight-walled case, while Indiana allows cases to be bottle-necked.
Hopefully one day they'll allow bottleneck in the southern lower, even though I no longer live there. Most are using the 450 BM and before that had went to using muzzle loaders in which they can easily shoot as far as a 30-30, 35 Rem, 32 Win Special, etc etc with a lot heavier bullet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
Those regulations do seem overly complex.

They remind me of some of the Oklahoma regulations on hunting black bear.
If you think hogs can mess up a deer camp (fences, tents, travel trailers, cabins, storage areas, feeders, etc) , Imagine what black bears can do. They can climb over, tip over, tear into, dig under just about any thing.
Southeast OK residents, hunters, outfitters, etc tell me there are way too many black bear in their part of the state (bear populations have reached the nuisance level) BUT the state does not allow bear hunting with modern firearms; bears may be hunted only with archery equipment and black powder/muzzle loader type rifles, so there are not enough hunters to manage the bear population. The legal hunting areas have just been expanded, but still no modern firearms. ????

I am hoping this will push excess bears south into Texas where we can take them and help OK solve their population problem. :)
As someone in this part of Oklahoma, we will gladly try to push the bears to you and hope that each bear takes 5-10 hogs with him! I got pictures of one a while back that came out on a friends range to look for something to eat while we were shooting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Me too

Southern Michigan. I am going to pick up one of them there newest Winchester bolt guns in.350 Legend. Waiting for more to be available. Everything in .350 Legend sold out of every sporting goods store in my area including Cabela's last fall. If you don't have to match your reloading equipment you might consider one.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top