Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I loaded up 45acp with WLP, 11.8gr #7, and 200gr Hornady XTP. Accurate lists a max load of 12gr with a velocity of 1036 fps with 5" test barrel. That's a standard load, not +p. Shot my rounds out of 2 different 1911s today across my Pro Chrono Pal. 25 rounds averaged 1163 fps. While not a high end chronograph, it has always read close to published loads or to what factory loads are rated for, pistol or rifle. I double checked the charges on both my old RCBS beam scale and Hornady electronic scale and my charges are +-.1gr of 11.8gr. I have used the same jug of powder for other loads/calibers and it is always close to published velocities. Any thoughts?
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,455 Posts
Winchester Large Pistol primers are basically a magnum primer, without the 'magnum' name. I would back your load down a bit.

Those primers will light off 50+ grains of Varget in a .444 Marlin case (yes, I tried it, no, it wasn't really any more accurate than large rifle primers) .... so 11 or 12 grains isn't much of a challenge.

My opinion/experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
I loaded up 45acp with WLP, 11.8gr #7, and 200gr Hornady XTP. Accurate lists a max load of 12gr with a velocity of 1036 fps with 5" test barrel. That's a standard load, not +p. Shot my rounds out of 2 different 1911s today across my Pro Chrono Pal. 25 rounds averaged 1163 fps. While not a high end chronograph, it has always read close to published loads or to what factory loads are rated for, pistol or rifle. I double checked the charges on both my old RCBS beam scale and Hornady electronic scale and my charges are +-.1gr of 11.8gr. I have used the same jug of powder for other loads/calibers and it is always close to published velocities. Any thoughts?
I agree with Mike, 45acp doesn't need that kind of velocity to work right. Our old IPSC loads were basically +p and weren't going that fast. You're loading frame crackers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I don't intend to keep loading them that hot. I'm just trying to understand why they are running that hot. I don't expected them to exactly match the load data velocities, but they should be closer to them. I've only ever used WLP primers in my 45 and never had loads running hot using Titegroup, bullseye, 231, bluedot, or #7 with lead. This is the first time I've loaded jacketed rounds for the 45.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,392 Posts
IMI made M1911 BALL ammo (230 gr.) for gov't in 70s. Gov't spec was 830 fps, the IMI was blowing the tops of barrels out of M1911A1 or cracking them. It was chronographed at 910 fps and recoil was exciting to say the least.

I would not shoot those loads in a Gov't Model.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,620 Posts
Last time I saw the IMI/TZZ ammo was in 2008 in Baghdad. Worked fine in my 1916 dated M1911 Colt frame with Ithaca slide. All the .45 ammo I had in Astan in 2014 was all WCC, carried a 1944 dated Remington Rand then.

2008

2014



CD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
I don't intend to keep loading them that hot. I'm just trying to understand why they are running that hot. I don't expected them to exactly match the load data velocities, but they should be closer to them. I've only ever used WLP primers in my 45 and never had loads running hot using Titegroup, bullseye, 231, bluedot, or #7 with lead. This is the first time I've loaded jacketed rounds for the 45.
When I started learning to reload it was impressed upon me that if you change ANY component you have too drop back on the charges and work up your load again. Your experience would seem to bear this out.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,339 Posts
The TZZ performance probably depends on the lot. I shot some in a single-shot barrel I have a strain gauge on and got peak pressures in the 19,000 psi range, and velocity fairly normal.



79IHScout,

Do you have any pressure signs?

How far is the chronograph from the muzzle of the gun? That slow powder will throw a lot of unburned grains out and have a lot of muzzle blast, and those can cause false triggering of the screens before the bullet gets there if you are too close. 15 feet from muzzle to half way between the two screens is the SAAMI standard test distance. Try it there.

Also, if your chronograph always gets results at of very close to published velocities for rifles with 24" barrels (the most common standard velocity test barrel length for rifle) that suggests to me it reads a little high anyway, as most people get numbers a little lower than factory owing to not having the dead minimum chambers a SAAMI test barrel does.

QuickLOAD says 20,000 psi and 1062 fps from a 5" tube for your load, and it tends to be slightly high because the case capacity is ideal on the tight side. If I adjust that case capacity to what my brass measures, it drops to 18,000 psi and 1035 fps. Pretty close to what Accurate observed. It also says a 5" tube will throw a full third of the powder out unburned after the bullet clears the muzzle (#5 is much more efficient with this bullet). As I suggested earlier, that can mess up your readings if the chronograph is too close.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
273 Posts
>I loaded up 45acp with WLP, 11.8gr #7, and 200gr Hornady XTP. Accurate lists a max load of 12gr with a velocity of 1036 fps with 5" test barrel.

1) What happened to STARTING with the START load and working up? I have never seen any reload recommendation NOT to start at the start load in any manual.
2) Did you use the SAME lot number of powder? If not, there is where you can have a difference. Add that, unless you have the same lot number of primers, the same EXACT bullets, and the same case, loaded to the same COL and fired from the same gun, you will have variations.
If you fire the same load from four different guns, you will get four different velocities, and they can be as much as 100+ fps different from high to low.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
IMI made M1911 BALL ammo (230 gr.) for gov't in 70s. Gov't spec was 830 fps, the IMI was blowing the tops of barrels out of M1911A1 or cracking them. It was chronographed at 910 fps and recoil was exciting to say the least.

I would not shoot those loads in a Gov't Model.
Humpy, the military 1911 and 1911A1s are not built as well as a lot of commercial models. regardless, the load of the OP is bizarre.

In the old early IPSC days, 6.0 of 231 or 5.0 of Bullseye was basically +P, especially with a jacketed bullet and for me, that was with Federal primers.

He's headed for a cracked slide or frame depending.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
>I loaded up 45acp with WLP, 11.8gr #7, and 200gr Hornady XTP. Accurate lists a max load of 12gr with a velocity of 1036 fps with 5" test barrel.

1) What happened to STARTING with the START load and working up? I have never seen any reload recommendation NOT to start at the start load in any manual.
2) Did you use the SAME lot number of powder? If not, there is where you can have a difference. Add that, unless you have the same lot number of primers, the same EXACT bullets, and the same case, loaded to the same COL and fired from the same gun, you will have variations.
If you fire the same load from four different guns, you will get four different velocities, and they can be as much as 100+ fps different from high to low.
And pushing past 950 is really strange depending on the pistol type
 

·
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
Joined
·
36,455 Posts
I loaded up 45acp with WLP, 11.8gr #7, and 200gr Hornady XTP. Accurate lists a max load of 12gr with a velocity of 1036 fps with 5" test barrel. That's a standard load, not +p. Shot my rounds out of 2 different 1911s today across my Pro Chrono Pal. 25 rounds averaged 1163 fps. While not a high end chronograph, it has always read close to published loads or to what factory loads are rated for, pistol or rifle. I double checked the charges on both my old RCBS beam scale and Hornady electronic scale and my charges are +-.1gr of 11.8gr. I have used the same jug of powder for other loads/calibers and it is always close to published velocities. Any thoughts?
Does your OAL match the Accurate data, and does Accurate specifically list that bullet (200 gr. XTP)? If no to either question - that could be your answer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,297 Posts
Does your OAL match the Accurate data, and does Accurate specifically list that bullet (200 gr. XTP)? If no to either question - that could be your answer.
Mike, the velocity is to high for a 1911. That's not a smart load SD aside
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
I have an Armscor Officers Mdl. 45Acp, 3 1/2" bbl. I load 185 gram. Hornady FMJ SWCwuith either6.4 Win 231 or Power Pistol 6.1 grams. Roughly 850 Fps. I mounted Crimson Trace grips.
This is my carry weapon, good accuracy at range with reloads above. Carry loads are Hornady Critical Defense rounds.
My hat is off to anyone with the recoil inherent with 11 grams of anything.

Just my $.02
ndiaman
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,339 Posts
For the European readers with metric scales, he meant grains, not grams. Grams are 15.432 times bigger than grains.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LarryLee

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
In my gold cup, I have chronyed 1423 fps with a 230gr. RN with my Clark .460 Rowland kit. I think the frame can take it but the case would be the weaker point. If the .45 ACP case generated dangerous pressures, it will show the tell tale signs of over pressure from hotter loads up to and including catastrophic buldging and blowing out at the extractor cut out.

So, how does the brass look? At 1109+ fps, either the case is showing signs of failure or the chrony is reading incorrectly.

Clark 460 Rowland Kit Link
1911 Archives - Clark Custom Guns
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Last time I saw the IMI/TZZ ammo was in 2008 in Baghdad. Worked fine in my 1916 dated M1911 Colt frame with Ithaca slide. All the .45 ammo I had in Astan in 2014 was all WCC, carried a 1944 dated Remington Rand then.

CD
TZZ .45 ACP was made for the M10 SMG, which was blow-back operated. It was loaded hotter than regular military ball so it could cycle that heavy bolt.

We were advised by Crane not to use too much of it out of our .45 pistols, so be careful not to damage your pistols by feeding them too steady a diet of TZZ.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top