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Discussion Starter #1
o.k. folks, seeing as the 7x57 is the parent case for the 257 roberts, is there any actual difference for 6.5 x 57 imp, and the 6.5-257roberts imp? i am thinking of one of the 6.5's that will not be a bbl burner, such as the 264 magum.the 6.5x284 at 3000 fps, is gaining a reputation for burning barrels. according to some of the long range boards. any opinions or experience? and if i actually biuld one of these 6.5's, i intend to use the lee collet dies if i can persuade them to make it up. thanks for any advice. john
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Hi, Halfbreed:
It looks like you'd end up with the case capacity of a .256 Newton in either case. If the action is long enough, I'd go with this sadly neglected oldie. Of course, I'm prejudiced, as a First Model Newton was the second high-powder rifle I ever shot.

Bye
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #3
hello JM, I have read a little about the Newton cartridge, of course I can't remember what it was. what is the parent case, velocity, how much powder does it burn. I am thinking about a 28" bbl. with a target style stock. Maybe with an overall weight of around 15-16 lbs. as you know i don't stalk anymore. As a matter of fact, i hav'nt hunted for the last couple of seasons. Maybe something with a little reach would change that.
And thanks for the reply, John
 

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Not to muddy the waters too much, but seems there has also been a lot of interest in the 6.5/06. I've got a few articles on that, if you are interested.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Ken Waters has done at least writeup on the Newton in his Pet Loads book. The .256 case can be formed from the basic '06 brass, although for some reason the shoulder is pushed back a little, so less capacity than the .25-06/.270/.280/.30-06.

Load data is somewhat scarce and per Ken, some of the published loads are wildly overpressure. I'm sure you would exercise caution in working up.

With less capacity than the '06 family, you would of course have less velocity potential than the 6.5x06. I don't have my loading books in front of me so can't provide any exact numbers. I think that it gains a little on the 6.5x55.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Alyeska, Mike G, Thanks for the replys guys.
I think Mike has come up with most of the same info I had, wild pressures, and few starting loads.
Alyeska, we have enough muddy water down here thanks,:p ,
been raining almost daily now for 7-8 days, and NOT cold enough to snow,DRATS, I have thouight about the 6.5-06, but i just gotta be different! You know me,
I was thinking, I know I know, but seriously though, I was thinking a long action throated out long enough to seat the 140 gn bullets even with the case neck so as to not get into the powder column. this would use less powder than the 6.5x284, 264 wm, stw, etc. ?? so with a 28" bbl, I should be able to hit the 3000 fps mark. Without burning the barrel unduly. Right? By the way, how is Mike coming along?
Thanks for your thoughts on this guys. john
 

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Hi, Halfbreed:
The Newton is a necked down and slightly shortened .30-06, as mentioned. Charles Newton didn't have a slow enough powder in 1913 for the full sized 6.5-06 case. As Ross Seyfried mentioned in his .280 Ross article, the slowest powders available then were about like 4064.

The dimensions shown in the drawing aren't quite right in the shoulder. The Western loads I have measure .420", which you'd expect, since the dimensions shown are maximum. However, a reload made from .30-06 brass and made for that First Model measures .430" and a REM-UMC measures .435. That one hasn't been checked in the rifle, so it may be too big. It has what looks like a stubby Bronze-Point loaded in it. The Western has a long hollow-point, C.O.L. is 3.280".

Ross Seyfried wrote up the rifle in Rifle #204, Nov-Dec 02. He doesn't provide any loading data, but suggests taking the starting loads in Hornady #5 for the 6.5-06 and working up carefully. Hornady got 2900 fps with the 140 grain bullet and 3000 fps with the 129 grainer. So knock off a 100 fps.

6.5 fan Charles Benke has reloading data for 30 bullets, from 85 to 160 grains, in Rifle #172, July-Aug 97. This was in a custom Mauser, but Ken Waters writes up his First Model Newton in the same issue. Benke got up to Hornady's 6.5-06 velocities with his Newton, but admits his loads were hot. He used a 24" barrel, so you probably could go that fast with a 28" barrel without staining things. He says the Newton holds a bit more powder than any of the improved versions of the 6.5x57.

Rifle and Handloader are pretty good with back issues. They were $6 each, last time I ordered.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hello Jack Monteith, Thanks for the write up. I have a few old Gun Digest books, in one they show some of the newton rifles and cartridges, I'll have to get them out!
And thanks for the photo, it does show quite a long neck.
I will look into the Rifle #142 articles.
Well, we are now getting lots of more rain, sleet, maybe snow. If it's not a white Christmas, it's going to miss a good chance.

TO ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS, John
 

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Hi, Halfbreed:
Sants Claus brought me a scanner for Christmas. A Gent on another board scanned cartridges, so I gave it a try. Not as good as a photo, but good enough for a general idea.

Bye
Jack
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hello Jack Monteith, pretty nice pictures. and to think all I got for x-mas was a lump of coal and a headache.
now talk about putting things into context, Iv'e read where alot of folk said the 264 winchester was nothing but a 270 without a belt. and that looks about right.
Just when I thought a 6.5x257 Roberts was in my future, someone else had to go and throw a 7mm Mashburn Super into the mix. Said it is somewhere between a 7 Rem. and a 7mm wby. with the 160 gners. By this time all I know for sure is, i would like to resurrect some of the old forgotten cartridges to play with. Particurarly for some long range deer hunting. Maybe this will help get me back into the swing of things.
Thanks for the information guys, I just knowed i could count on yall. John
 

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halfbreed,
Don't forget about the 275 H&H Mag or the 280 Ross. :D The 275 pretty much duplicates the 7mm Rem Mag, but came out around 1912.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Alyeska, you're killen me man,;)
And I just knew you would throw somethin else out there to get me going. :D
Thanks for the input guys.
john
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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Hello, Halfbreed & All -

My 2 bits worth - I have a 6.5x.257 Rob'ts Ack Imp. that is made up with a custom barrel on a 1941 vintage Swede '38 action. Wanted to have it print the 140 grainers at around 3000 fps, but this proved impractical. The rifle just doesn't want to group anything heavier than the Hornady 129 gr bullets. Rate of twist is 1/10. The absolute best load for it is the 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, IMR 4831 powder and a Winchester WLR standard primer, giving 3000 fps mv +-. These will group MOA when I do my part.

I also have a customized 6.5-06 which will comfortably push 120 gr Sierra Pro Hunters into MOA's at 3250 fps mv.

If I weren't so pig headed, I'd stick with the 6.5-06 and quit fooling with the 6.5x.257AI, but this has been an ongoing project for me for several years and it's just now starting to bear fruit!

I contacted Lee products in Wi. a couple years ago about making some custom wildcat dies. At that time, they said send them a couple of dummy rounds and $85 and they could make it. Might check them out and see it this still holds true.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Kdub, thanks for the reply. I am really hoping to get into the 140 grainers, if I stick with the 6.5 cal.
By the way welcome to the board.
Halfbreed
 

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I know this is an older post but thought I would throw in my 2 cents. Here in the US, what most people call the 6.5x57 or the AI version is based off the 257 Roberts case necked up or the 7x57 case necked down. The real 6.5 x 57is a European cartridge that was developed early 1900's and is based off the 8x 57 Mauser case. Therefore it's shoulder is moved forward substantially farther than that of the 7x57 case. With the original version and equal pressure you'll get virtually the same performance as the 6.5x257 AI but if you blow it out to an Ackley version you'll be neck and neck with the 6.5-06 or 6.5-284 Nosler. I made one up on a 24" Douglass featherweight barrel that's super accurate and is running right at 3040fps with 129 gr accubonds and just over 2900 with 140's using a few grains Less powder. Just something to think about.
 
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