I have been reloading my own ammo for about 40 years. Recently, I have read that one should stick to factory cartriges for the Rem 7600. I am wondering why. I realize that this action is not as strong as a bolt,but if pressures are not excessive, what is the problem? Does anyone have an answer or thoughts? Thanks.
7600&reloading
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I have no clue. In a Garand, because the powders can be too slow to produce safe gas port pressures, it is recommended that you avoid commercial loads. Surplus military and Hornady's new Garand match load are the only recommended factory fodder for it. Otherwise, you have to reload.
The only thing that occurs to me is that, for feed reliability, the chamber may be big and they are worrying attempts to reload will result in early head separations. Using a broken case extractor through the ejection port may be impossible. I'd have to look at a fired case from one to get any better idea about that.
Otherwise, the trick would be to resize, then check for an expansion ring with a bent tip on a paperclip. Toss any case in which you feel one.
The only thing that occurs to me is that, for feed reliability, the chamber may be big and they are worrying attempts to reload will result in early head separations. Using a broken case extractor through the ejection port may be impossible. I'd have to look at a fired case from one to get any better idea about that.
Otherwise, the trick would be to resize, then check for an expansion ring with a bent tip on a paperclip. Toss any case in which you feel one.
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I do believe the 7600 is a pump action?? I see no reason why it can't be loaded a "little hotter" than factory, But why? If you need more power, Go to a more powerful caliber. Cases last longer as so does powder supply at factory levels.
I never knew this about the Garand. I have shot thousands of military surplus rounds through mine without a hitch. Also shot alot of factory ammo too, Without a problem. Have look into this more. Where did you get info? Thanks Steve
I never knew this about the Garand. I have shot thousands of military surplus rounds through mine without a hitch. Also shot alot of factory ammo too, Without a problem. Have look into this more. Where did you get info? Thanks Steve
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PAShooter;
Reread your post. I see you are not trying to beef up loads, Just normal reloads. I have no idea whay they reccomend factory only ammo, Except they want your money. Steve
Reread your post. I see you are not trying to beef up loads, Just normal reloads. I have no idea whay they reccomend factory only ammo, Except they want your money. Steve
I have a 760 in 308 that I reload for. The 760 is the predecessor of the 7600. The difference is the 760 had many small locking lugs, while the 7600 has fewer but larger locking lugs. I have been told this was done for manufacturing ease and to create a smoother action. I have shot thousands of rounds of reloads with no problem. I have found for reliable chambering, you will need a small base sizer die to bring the case fully to factory ammo specs, as you don't have the camming power of a bolt action, to force tight fitting cases to chamber. Other than that, for all practical purposes, the 760/7600 series guns are just as suitable strength wise as bolt actions, for any load within SAAMI specs.
Thanks for the comments. I will continue to load cartriges for my son's 7600 as I have for the past 10 years. I do stay within factory pressures and had no problems thus far. I always FL resize and carefully check brass. Feeding is not a problem.
IMHO - the primary reason to discourage reloads in the pumps/semi-autos/leverguns is jamming and not chambering if the cases are too large after firing and a SB sizing die isn't used on the reloads. There are a jillion shooters of these types of firearms than never experience any problems whatsoever with standard sizing dies, and then there are some who say the action jams without the use of the smaller dies.
The manufacturers always err on the side of caution.
The manufacturers always err on the side of caution.
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I had always used Factory Ammo in my 7600 and got so so accuracy, 1.5-2.0 @ 100 yds. Last year I started to re-load for my 7600. I have found, in my situation, this gun to be very fussy. I enjoyed the challenge. Now I have come up with a load for my gun that groups 1.25-1.5 @ 100 yds. W/O giving the specifics I use a 165 spfb, Win Brass, WLR Primer, WW 760 Powder, and 3.185 COL. I will add that MY GUN likes the Winchester powder the best, no matter what bullet weight I used. I have had no problems with feeding or extracting. It also should be noted that this load is not a max load either.
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My current 7600 is a .35 Whelen, and it will digest anything I feed my CDL M700. Remington has often remarked that it is as strong as a bolt gun, and it probably is. I also owned a M760 Carbine in .30-06 for a while. It handeled the same loads I fed my bolt gun, and the only down side was it had the most ferocious muzzle blast this side of a small cannon. Flame with slower powders was impressive at the end of the day.
The thing that might be a fly in the soup, is that they sometimes have a tight chamber, and when they do, you need a small base die to squeeze 'em down. Other than that, 7600's are often very accurate, and well worth working up loads for.
The primary reason you hear of the caution of loading too "hot" for the Remington 7600 is it lack of "primary extraction" of over-sized (or over pressured) cases because of the design of the action. It is a two lug bolt that locks up as well as a bolt, but if you get a stuck case hung up in the action you can't "cam-it-out" like a "bolt" gun. I too use a 7600 in a .35 Whelen and have not found the need to load down from published reloading data because of the action. (I do watch my cases for pressure signs more closely when approaching maximum than with my "bolt" guns!)
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I have a Remington 760 in 243, I have to make sure to resize a bit more than I do for the bolt action guns or else you have a real hard time closing the action. The brass will probably not last as long as in a bolt action but should still be good for 6 to 8 loadings maybe more, I have not worn any of mine out yet but then I do not shot this one a lot.
Michael Grace
Michael Grace
I had a round that was hard to feed last weekend in my 760. I thought I had things sorted out and I had checked all my rounds for function. It was the 1st round out of the mag and I was just getting ready to start hunting. If it had been the second round in the mag and I had tried to rack it in for a follow up on a big antlered whitetail of a lifetime, I would have had an interesting tale of a lifetime. Oh well, it wasn't so I don't. I have never got the small base dies that would probably take care of the issue. I probably never will, but i will be more diligent in checking my rounds for function before a hunt. I have not had an extraction issue yet, even with hard to feed rounds. My old 760 is a 30.06.
a few things can contribute to some saying they are fussy. i currently have 6-7600 and 1-760 and reload for all of them. cartridge length is the number one problem. i am able to load to published powder max charges and length but if cartridge is long it may not go into battery. this can point to tight chambers which enhances accuracy and is something that must be given some attention as sloppy reloading practices will result in bad ammo. cases that are from some other types of firearms may not chamber even after fl resizing,this is an issue that i also encountered with an AR and a 7600 in 308 as there seems to be some memory to the brass after fl sizing. sometimes this can be corrected by running brass through die 2 or 3 times. this is a pain but usually only needs done the first time you load this brass for that gun. dirty guns and bad magazines are also problems. i have bought over the years many 7600/760's that 'jam' cheap and either cleaned them or spent $21.00 on a new magazine to solve all of the guns problems. a magazine has many critical bends in it along with a spring and floor plate, dirt or bent feed lips from riding in the glove compartment and all of a sudden the gun jams.
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Chief, RCBS sells them seperately, and they don't cost much.
Hate to see ya lose that big 12 Pointer for for the cost of one. They are also good for bringing "pick up" brass to spec, so you can use it in your rifle.
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Chief,
The small base dies see increasingly common use because of all the AR shooters buying surplus once-fired military brass that a full auto weapon has left too big to be resized small enough to feed reliably into a tighter chamber. If the brass was fired new in your gun, though, a standard sizing die will usually work without paying for the narrower diameter of the SB die (which also works the brass more, shortening case life). If it came out of your gun, length should be the only issue, and there are a couple of tricks you can use to shorten it.
One that I've used when the cases were very close is simply to run the case into the sizing die and count to five, back it out, rotate it 180° and run it back in for another count of five. I can sometimes see up to two thousandths additional shortening from doing that.
The other is board member F. Guffey's favorite trick, and that is, after the case has been deprimed, removing the decapping pin from the sizing die and sliding an automotive feeler gauge between the case head and the shell holder, then running it up into the sizing die. There is generally room in a standard shell holder to get quite a bit of additional sizing that way, though, again, a few thousandths are usually plenty. I've done up to five thousandths trying that method out.
I suppose there is a clever way to drill a clean hole in a feeler gauge so you can decap through one, but other than abrasives and carbide end cutting end mills, I don't know what it is.
There are two issues. First, and foremost, it's about protecting the operating rods. They are increasingly scarce, which is why match rules now allow NM op-rods in guns for as-issued matches. The Garand was designed to shoot ammo loaded with medium speed powders like IMR4895. H380 is about as slow as you want to go. Military ammo is loaded within a pressure envelope safe for the Garand, so that's not a problem, but many commercial loads use slower powders to squeeze more velocity out of a bullet for the peak pressure generated. When you fire one of these you get higher port pressure, and this can batter and actually bend an op-rod. If that happens, you have to find a replacement. Hornady's load manual addresses this by now having a whole separate second section of .30-06 loads just for the Garand. They are pretty mild, but if your op-rod has some mileage on it, they are a good place to start.
The Garand's action itself is plenty strong. If you need to fire those slow powder loads in your Garand, go to Brownells and buy a vented gas cylinder plug. These replace the plug you have, but bleed off a portion of the pressure in the gas cylinder. They are either adjustable or come with a series of different size vents in screws that you can swap into it. The neat thing is, you can adjust them to bleed enough gas that the gun no longer throws the brass a mile away, but drops it close enough to find. The downsides are you may need to adjust them
The second issue is out-of-battery slamfires. Most commercial ammo won't cause you a problem because this kind of slamfire is usually due to high primers, which are rare in commercial ammo. However, more recently there have been some reports of out-of-battery slamfires that occurred just because the primer used is more sensitive than a military primer. An incident of an out-of-battery slamfire using Federal White box ammo was reported, for example (I don't have a link at hand, but can find one if you want it). Winchester has made their primers more sensitive, too, in recent years, so avoiding those two brands in the Garand may be advisable.
I used Federal 210M for a long time in both the Garand and M1A with no problem before I learned of this issue, but have now changed to the CCI #34's. They offer some added insurance, as they are made to military sensitivity (hardness) specifications, and the military has fired many millions of rounds of their ammo in these guns without out-of-battery slamfires being a major issue. But getting the primers below flush with the case head is still the most critical thing to do with any primer.
I'd like to think the high primers are the only slamfire issue if the gun is in good shape and if the case is properly resized to fit in a Wilson case gauge at inspection. Unfortunately, once an out-of-battery slamfire occurs, there is enough metal damage that you can't be sure of being able to learn what the tolerances were when the incident occurred.
You can find more about these issues at the ODCMP forum.
The small base dies see increasingly common use because of all the AR shooters buying surplus once-fired military brass that a full auto weapon has left too big to be resized small enough to feed reliably into a tighter chamber. If the brass was fired new in your gun, though, a standard sizing die will usually work without paying for the narrower diameter of the SB die (which also works the brass more, shortening case life). If it came out of your gun, length should be the only issue, and there are a couple of tricks you can use to shorten it.
One that I've used when the cases were very close is simply to run the case into the sizing die and count to five, back it out, rotate it 180° and run it back in for another count of five. I can sometimes see up to two thousandths additional shortening from doing that.
The other is board member F. Guffey's favorite trick, and that is, after the case has been deprimed, removing the decapping pin from the sizing die and sliding an automotive feeler gauge between the case head and the shell holder, then running it up into the sizing die. There is generally room in a standard shell holder to get quite a bit of additional sizing that way, though, again, a few thousandths are usually plenty. I've done up to five thousandths trying that method out.
I suppose there is a clever way to drill a clean hole in a feeler gauge so you can decap through one, but other than abrasives and carbide end cutting end mills, I don't know what it is.
Steve,
There are two issues. First, and foremost, it's about protecting the operating rods. They are increasingly scarce, which is why match rules now allow NM op-rods in guns for as-issued matches. The Garand was designed to shoot ammo loaded with medium speed powders like IMR4895. H380 is about as slow as you want to go. Military ammo is loaded within a pressure envelope safe for the Garand, so that's not a problem, but many commercial loads use slower powders to squeeze more velocity out of a bullet for the peak pressure generated. When you fire one of these you get higher port pressure, and this can batter and actually bend an op-rod. If that happens, you have to find a replacement. Hornady's load manual addresses this by now having a whole separate second section of .30-06 loads just for the Garand. They are pretty mild, but if your op-rod has some mileage on it, they are a good place to start.
The Garand's action itself is plenty strong. If you need to fire those slow powder loads in your Garand, go to Brownells and buy a vented gas cylinder plug. These replace the plug you have, but bleed off a portion of the pressure in the gas cylinder. They are either adjustable or come with a series of different size vents in screws that you can swap into it. The neat thing is, you can adjust them to bleed enough gas that the gun no longer throws the brass a mile away, but drops it close enough to find. The downsides are you may need to adjust them
The second issue is out-of-battery slamfires. Most commercial ammo won't cause you a problem because this kind of slamfire is usually due to high primers, which are rare in commercial ammo. However, more recently there have been some reports of out-of-battery slamfires that occurred just because the primer used is more sensitive than a military primer. An incident of an out-of-battery slamfire using Federal White box ammo was reported, for example (I don't have a link at hand, but can find one if you want it). Winchester has made their primers more sensitive, too, in recent years, so avoiding those two brands in the Garand may be advisable.
I used Federal 210M for a long time in both the Garand and M1A with no problem before I learned of this issue, but have now changed to the CCI #34's. They offer some added insurance, as they are made to military sensitivity (hardness) specifications, and the military has fired many millions of rounds of their ammo in these guns without out-of-battery slamfires being a major issue. But getting the primers below flush with the case head is still the most critical thing to do with any primer.
I'd like to think the high primers are the only slamfire issue if the gun is in good shape and if the case is properly resized to fit in a Wilson case gauge at inspection. Unfortunately, once an out-of-battery slamfire occurs, there is enough metal damage that you can't be sure of being able to learn what the tolerances were when the incident occurred.
You can find more about these issues at the ODCMP forum.
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No Way!
Wish I'd thought of that.
I use a universal decapper, so all the pins on my regular dies are removed. But I'll be darned if the feeler guage doesn't work great.
I have used the wait and rotate though, although I use 90 degrees of rotation.
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90 degrees is better if the problem is an oval die. 180 is better if the problem is one side getting more sizing than the other from a slightly out-of-square die. I suppose the trick is to use a case gauge and see which one tends to turn out rounder ammo for you.
You can, by the way, purchase 1/2"×12" long feeler gauges individually for just under $2 each. That provides a more convenient handle for following the press ram up. A Dremel tool with cutoff wheel or a grinder of most any kind wheel will cut a step into it if you need it narrower than half an inch.
You can, by the way, purchase 1/2"×12" long feeler gauges individually for just under $2 each. That provides a more convenient handle for following the press ram up. A Dremel tool with cutoff wheel or a grinder of most any kind wheel will cut a step into it if you need it narrower than half an inch.
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