Been around some brangus (angus/brahma cross) cattle and they were mean enough. I can't imagine what a buffalo/brahma cross might be like. Let alone one with a bullet in him to spice things up a bit.

Whats the caliber of that 440 grain slug, mike??

As we learned in physics---Mass in motion tends to stay in motion.

 

From my youthful raising on West Texas ranches, and from experience since, I've decided that there are two variations of the venerable Brahma breed. One a whitish/gray to blackish brown color, the other more red. With quite a few variations in the gray ones. For the most part, if handled properly, they can be the most docile of cattle. In their native land of India, small children lead huge animals through bustling crowds with no problem, holding them with nothing more than what appears to be bailer twine. However, that "handled properly" is a loaded qualification. It means be as gentle and quiet as possible around them. Chouse them, get them stirred up, think you're going to "force" them into something, then you get a problem.And their size can make that a serious problem. Ask a rodeo clown.
Two very different bloodlines.
The reds are crazy. Every one I've ever encountered was an idiot(as if a bovine ever has much sense).
Most of the Brahmas in the States are of the gray bloodline, so most of the cross breeds we see are of the gray line. And most(MOST) are fairly manageable cattle. There are always exceptions with livestock, just like people. MOST Brangus, which is a cross between Brahma and Angus, are fairly good dispositioned cattle. Again, best to handle them kinda easy till they get used to you and you to them.
Crossing with a buffalo throws in a wild card(no pun intended). Buffalo are notoriously independent, and even more aggresive than domestic cattle. I would suppose because of their recent history as totally wild animals. They can be domesticated quite well, but still retain that independence in a lot of ways.
As for how much energy it takes to cleanly kill something that big, a lot of that depends on the mental state of the animal immediately before delivering the fatal shot, as well as placement. Capstick and I'm sure a lot of other WHs used to cull African elephants with a .308. Not something I would suggest, but it has been done, routinely, in the right setting.
There is an old story about an Indian guide in Alaska that had several B&C moose to his credit. When asked by his clients as to what caliber he used, he calmly claimed "it was a .22 long rifle." Seems he would get on a lake in his canoe, find his bull near the shore, point his canoe straight at the moose, then take one stroke of the paddle while the moose had his head underwater, grazing. The paddle stroke would cause the moose to raise his head, but by then, the hunter was sitting stone still in his canoe, drifting straight toward the moose. Moose thinks it's a log. Repeat the process until in range, shoot the moose, in the ear, with the .22.
And DO NOT MISS! Unless you want to give an angry 1500 lb moose a canoe ride. Cause he might get in. Likely on your end.

 

Mike;
Sounds like you have some fine eating ahead of you. I love it when I read the "rags" that say you need a "super duper manum blooper" to kill. Guess they just sit in a office and look at playboy, eh? 1000 pounds of energy is alot. I have seen alot of deer fall to a lowly 22 long rifle when I was a kid. How much muzzle energy does it have? I hunt with mostly my 44 magnum redhawk or my freedom arms 454, Both are overkill for most conditions. I just like the guns and can hit with them. I don't pay much attention to articles in mags when they start talking about how much power is needed to kill an animal. Once you put a hole clean through, How much more do you need? I see you have that nice wide meplat on that bullet. I have lbt molds for my .430 and .452. Glad I bought them. As stated above- Mass tends to stay in motion- VERY TRUE. Besides animals can't read the rags anyway. They just know they are dead when smacked with a well designed, well placed bullet. God Bless Steve

 

I don't think it's listed on the Buffalo Bore web site, but it's one of their loadings of the .500 JRH (Jack Huntington designed cartridge).

Got the pleasure of meeting Jack on the hunt, and when he mentioned that he would like data from hunting with the 'light' .500 JRH load, well.... it was too much temptation to not use it. He backed me up with one of his double rifles on the hunt, but didn't have to shoot.

He shot an asiatic water buffalo with the 'heavy' load, a 425gr. bullet at 1350fps. Frankly.... they were both pretty effective! His trip, by the way, was to gather information for a gun manufacturer who is going to chamber his cartridge in their guns.

I'll not say more till I get back in touch with him and verify that it's OK to spill the beans on that.....

 

I believe I would have just sidled up a little closer and shot it in the head with a .22 pistol.

 

Less than 1000fpe+...you better go back and check the freezer, it might have woke up and run off.

 

Congrats Mike, and thanks for the story. Had to be a bit exciting when it turned on you! Please tell us how it eats.

"Can't go wrong with slow and strong." Well, in the bullet world anyway.

 

I believe I would have just sidled up a little closer and shot it in the head with a .22 pistol.

You're a braver man than I am!!!!

Less than 1000fpe+...you better go back and check the freezer, it might have woke up and run off.

I'll call the meat processor in the AM and make sure that everything is still OK.... LOL

Here's the critter, and instrument of it's destruction:

 

You're a braver man than I am!!!!



I'll call the meat processor in the AM and make sure that everything is still OK.... LOL

Here's the critter, and instrument of it's destruction:

Nice spike! Was that guy free range or on any kind of supplement feed? He might be too good to make sausage out of!

 

Mike, just so you know; I hate you......

 

Mike,
Could you tell me something about that cartridge you were shooting? I never heard of it. A slug that big, but with the modest velocity...what was the recoil like?

Thanks for sharing!

Jim

 

Mike, just so you know; I hate you......

I'll take that as a compliment.

Drought conditions ( 0.9" of rain between September and May) meant there wasn't much of anything to eat. I think there was some alfalfa hay brought in to keep the big critters alive. Judging from the fat on him, he was doing OK.

Got confirmation that I can spill the beans. Basically, Magnum Research (the BFR revolvers) are coming out with a 5-shooter in the .500 JRH chambering. The .500 JRH is a tad smaller than a .500 S&W; both in length, and rim size. Jack designed it to fit in a Freedom Arms cylinder. It will also fit in the custom 5-shot conversions on the Ruger Bisley frame. The .500 JRH will shoot in a .500 S&W cylinder, but not the other way around, of course. I don't know how it compares to the other .50 cal handgun cartridges.

Judging from how it worked in the field.... I don't see any logical reason for the .500 S&W, at least for performance on game. This gun is shootable, without a muzzle break!

For whatever reason, Freedom Arms decided to do their own thing with the .500 Wyoming Express..... very similar, but using a belted case, instead of rimmed. Jack designed the .500 JRH to fit the F.A. guns, but they did not adopt it. At least one board member here has a custom F.A. chambered in the cartridge, that Jack made up as a prototype.

However, Magnum Research picked up the cartridge and is planning on making it a production chambering. No idea on schedules / availability.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I have a Premier grade .454 ..... and it surely is a finely fitted gun. FA will always be the to of the heap, for a premier off-the-shelf revolver.

But.... Magnum Research will give them something to chew on. The gun has some nice features, like a freewheeling cylinder (really handy on the big cases where you have to line up the cylinder exactly with the loading port). Cylinder spins like it is on ball bearings, I kid you not.

And you can carry all chambers loaded safely due to the transfer bar, which is NOT a good idea with the Freedom Arms.

The M.R. gun is already drilled/tapped on the topstrap. Jack tells me that the method of productio on the cylinders gives the same precsion as being line-bored. Trigger pull is very good, and the trigger guard is ROUNDED as opposed to the squared-off super-blackhawk trigger guard that M.R. had been using in the past.

11 degree target crown on the barrel..... not really necessary, but nice.

Locking base pin, and oversize ejector head.... I couldn't swear that all of these features will make it to the full production guns, but hopefully they all will.

This gun is much nicer than the production M.R. guns I have seen in the past. If M.R. plays this right, they'll find a nice market space between the people who must have the most expensive gun (FA and custom), and those who want some real (and controllable) performance in a gun that you can actually carry all day.

The darn thing is shootable, I'll tell you that. Can't tell much difference between my heavy .44 mag & .45 Colt loads in my Ruger Bisleys (which are lighter), and the 'light' 440 grain load in the M.R. gun. Heavy loads in the .500 JRH slap my trigger finger without a shooting glove, but the grips are too long/deep, as-is. I think I might be able to make up some grips that will solve that problem.

 

Thanks for all the information, Mike! I was kicking around the idea of a BFR, and this sounds like something I would be interested in.

Jim

 

You know I mean that in the best way Mike. Get back in my good graces by taking me on the next buffalo hunt!

Great information about the hunt and .500 JRH. I need to add my experience w/ an unsuitable caliber of too little power. Two years ago I used a .45 LC, 325gr. cast bullet to shoot through two hogs at once. Not by intent, but the second bacon wagon was unfortunate enough to be standing 3-4 yards in back of and in-line to my intended target, a boar weighing in around the 200# mark. One shot, two pigs, one empty BBA case, all from a measly, outdated, underpowered and some say obsolete cartridge. More info on the .500 JRH when it becomes available please.

 

I have had that exact 45 Colt load exit 1000# Bison it is a very powerfull and effective load. My 500 JRH is the first one that Jack built and it is the one that Buffalo Bore used for load developement. The 500 JRH is a very effective and shootable handgun

 

Mike, I work with Jack. He had all the film developed today and It looks like you all had a GREAT time. Nice Buff you shot. I wish I could have been there but a new baby kept me home. My 500 Nitro needs a good work out! Jack and I are talking about a hunt in the fall and I'm sure he'd like to have you along again. I'm sure JWP475 will be more careful about what he eats before a hunting trip next time. I have steaks from stupid and the water buff to bbq tomorrow....

 

Mike, I work with Jack. He had all the film developed today and It looks like you all had a GREAT time. Nice Buff you shot. I wish I could have been there but a new baby kept me home. My 500 Nitro needs a good work out! Jack and I are talking about a hunt in the fall and I'm sure he'd like to have you along again. I'm sure JWP475 will be more careful about what he eats before a hunting trip next time. I have steaks from stupid and the water buff to bbq tomorrow....

Well..... come on down for the next one! We got more critters that need shot, LOL

I have had that exact 45 Colt load exit 1000# Bison it is a very powerfull and effective load. My 500 JRH is the first one that Jack built and it is the one that Buffalo Bore used for load developement. The 500 JRH is a very effective and shootable handgun

John... so sorry you could not make it. "Stupid" was the perfect critter for you to shoot..... he needed shot, and you would have enjoyed it. Maybe next time...

SFT.... you are more than welcome, on the next buffalo shooting expedtion! Not sure how long it will take me to eat this one, though. I'll save you a few bites....

 

For those that have read this thread what did you learn from it if anything? I believe there is much information here that go's directly against some commonly held beliefs.Since this was done in the real world on real animals it's validity can not be denied

 

MikeG;
I'll take you up on that offer, but don't get greedy and wolf down all those steaks after the first BBQ or two!

 

MikeG;
I'll take you up on that offer, but don't get greedy and wolf down all those steaks after the first BBQ or two!

Not much chance.... 6 or 7 coolers full of meat!

By the way... never weighed the full animal.... but found out from the processor that the pieces I brought him, weighed 505 lbs.

Not sure what that works out to be on the hoof.

 

Yes, I once shot a 2 year old cow bison, that definately wanted to get close and very personal. She busted one horn off in the process, and "Dummy" stood in the corell about 10 ft. in front of her, and made a one shot kill in the head with a Winchester 32-20.

I sold the 32-20 and now have a 45/70 for a utility rifle.

What is it they say? "Older and wiser"

 

Since this was done in the real world on real animals it's validity can not be denied

Tis true...but how many hide hunters had the chance to work a herd from 30 yards?

 

Tis true...but how many hide hunters had the chance to work a herd from 30 yards?

Think possibly you miss the point.... work the ballistics charts of the old long-range buffalo rifles, and see what the impact velocity may be at 300, 400, 500 yards when starting out with a lead bullet & black powder.... they also used large caliber, (.45 - .50) heavy bullets.

Low-velocity handgun rounds give us the same performance at close range..... if the rifles could do in 60 million buffalo at long range, the handgun should do fine at short range. And it does.

No, I wouldn't try to hit a buffalo 300 yards away with the handgun, it has a different purpose.

 

A close friend of the family is a Conservation Officer in MN. He was called out to a scene where a 1500 lb bison was loose and charging people.

No way was that thing going to settle down. So, it had to be put down.

Said officer had a 20rd mag on his Springfield M1A/M14. [308Win]

The beast began charging him. Took 13 rds of 308 (168gr JSP) to finally drop the monster.

2 things to remember:
1) animals on "the jazz" take alot more effort to put down than when standing stupid in the forest.
2) normally, 1000 fp-lbs of KE would be enough to drop any animal in NA... in this case, it took over 37K

Lastly, the CO was cleaning out his underwear afterwards... he only had 2 more round in his mag. (only put in 15 of the 20 so the mag spring had more power to it and less chance of jamming, a trick he learnd from a Korean war vet)

 

Most do not understand the science here. Energy is what you ALWAYS hear when descussing killing power, but momentum is what gets the bullet where it need to be. A 50 gr bullet with 800+ flbs will have very little momentum and thus very little penatration. When computing energy you use the square of the velocity, thus the high velocity rounds show a high 'energy' level, thus the deception!!!
In this case the 800+ flbs was enough becasue the momentum was there. They use the 1000 flbs because under most circumstances with bullets of normal hunting type and size this would apply.

 

A close friend of the family is a Conservation Officer in MN. He was called out to a scene where a 1500 lb bison was loose and charging people.

No way was that thing going to settle down. So, it had to be put down.

Said officer had a 20rd mag on his Springfield M1A/M14. [308Win]

The beast began charging him. Took 13 rds of 308 (168gr JSP) to finally drop the monster.

2 things to remember:
1) animals on "the jazz" take alot more effort to put down than when standing stupid in the forest.
2) normally, 1000 fp-lbs of KE would be enough to drop any animal in NA... in this case, it took over 37K

Lastly, the CO was cleaning out his underwear afterwards... he only had 2 more round in his mag. (only put in 15 of the 20 so the mag spring had more power to it and less chance of jamming, a trick he learnd from a Korean war vet)

Agreed... there was a huge difference in how my bison reacted, vs. "Stupid" that took two rounds from the .450 NE.

I would theorize that the biggest problem with shooting a mad bison with a .308 is have soft points, vs. something that would penetrate. The bones on that critter were pretty solid! Even a rib bone on the bison was thicker than a shoulder bone on a typical whitetail.

Lacking adequate penetration, the only sure stopper on a charging animal is through the nose or the forehead, whichever angle gets to the brain.