Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
A buddy of mine inherited one of these when his dad died recently. He's not a gun guy, so he asked me if I'd be interested in buying it. It's in pretty good shape, with the full-length stock, glossy finish, cheek piece, and double triggers, a second flip up rear sight, and cleaning kit in the butt plate, so I couldn't let it go to someone else.
Now I'm finding it's very hard to get reloading information or cartridges for it. It was sold to me with some "custom reloaded" shells that look to be modified 30-06 brass, but I carefully checked them and probably 75% of them had cracked or split necks, so I'm not shooting them.
I spoke to Midway USA to see about getting components for it and they told me that I could get some custom die from RCBS to modify 30-06 brass to use, but they had no reload info for it (powder, primer, or bullet info.) I didn't think to ask them about a die set for it.
Any information along these lines would be appreciated.
Also, any idea what it's worth? The blueing is in good condition, with some mottling. There may be a pit or 2 in the barrel, but nothing major and I could find no rust on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,150 Posts
9x56 Mannlicher and 9x57 Mauser are virtually identical. If you can find a copy of "Cartridges of the World" it has some data. The .358 Winchester is also a virtual clone of these two cartridges and you can use .358 starting load data and you will be very close to stndard loads for either. The biggest problem will be bullets as the 9x56 uses .356 bullets. Generally you can get away with using .358 bullets if the chamber neck is large enough to do this, and almost certainly it will be.The extra .002 will not make a significant difference in pressure as most seem to think it will.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
One of the best places to get what you need to load the 9X56, which ballisticallty is very much like the .358 Winchester, is the Old Western Scrounger. http://www.ows-ammo.com/catalog/ He also has loaded ammo for this rifle. Loaded ammo is not cheap so reloading is a must RCBS has the die sets. .358 diameter bullets are what is used for reloading. The actual diameter of the bullet used in the European 9mm rifles was .356, the extra 2 thousands of an inch will not be a problem you just reduce the load a tiny bit to make up for the increased pressure this might cause. The RCBS set uses the 30/06 case to form the brass out of. The sporting Manniicher Shoenauer is a truly sweet shooter, and in the 9X56 is good for anything that walks North American.

this outfit also custom loads the 9X56: http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html

One of the most enjoyable things a rifle shooter can do is reactivate old rifles in cartridges that are obsolete. The 9X56, 9X57 cartridges were both killed off by the 9.3X62, and the 9.3X74R but before this happened these two cartridges along with their rimmed counter parts for break action rifles and combination guns where very popular with German settlers in East Central Africa in the first 25 years or so of the 20th Century.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
I realizd this is a old post but wondering if anyone has tried 180 gr. Sierra 357 pistol bullets in one of these foer cheap shooting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
Sierra recommended the 180 FMP pistol bullets for hunting with my 358 Win. I haven't gotten around to trying them yet but I will.
 

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
10,470 Posts
One of Dad's favorite loads was a copious amount (means I can't remember how much, but more than a .357) of 2400 and a 357429 (170 grain cast) out of his M99 Savage .358 Win. plus another plinker load using Bullseye and a 358156 (158 grain gas checked) that I thought was built just for me to shoot gophers with when I was 12. :rolleyes:

A lot of options out there Humpy if one has the time and components.

RJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
yes for sure. I made up 36 9X56 cases today from LC 30.06 Match cases and figured out yesterday I needed to fab fixtures so I could hole 7/8X14 dies and form cases using the same die with a 1 ton arbor press.

Sure glad I have a lathe and can make such.Also used the lathe to remove 7MM of neck length from the cases so when I fiinished I had LE Wilson tool set dead on the money for 56MM and only had to trim about a MM from neck to uniform them.

I also made two expanders. First one takes case mouth up to .323 (8MM) and the second one opens neck again to .355 neck inside ID.

Was looking through my bullets and I also have some Sierra 170 gr. I have not opened yet so will take a look at them as well.

According to Quick Load I should be getting about 2450 fps with load I am looking at in the 180 gr.

Will probably check both out to see which one comes closest to iron sights on the rifle.

I was concerned at first that my loaded neck diameter might be too big but I miced fired cases I loaded in 80 and figured out the neck diameter is going to be .005" smaller than the fired case neck diameter.

I might just go ahead and make up another 20 rounds so I can have a box of 50.

Sure not going to be getting a box of the 250 gr. round nose bullets at what they cost.
 

·
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
Joined
·
23,815 Posts
Cartridges of the World, 12th edition has info on the 9x56mm MS. It says to use .356" bullets for handloading. 40.0 gr of IMR 3031 with a 200 gr SP bullet had 2110 fps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,139 Posts
Welcome Jav. Nice to see you post.

sounds like a beautiful rifle, nice purchase.

some good info here. But your cartridge was designed over 120 years ago, and your rifle maybe about 100 years old. I'd first chech the serial number for the daate of manufacture. Maybe have a good 'smith check it out. while the cartridge MAY look like a 358 winchester...it isn't in the same league. the 358 win is a modern high pressure round. the 9x56MS isn't designed for those pressures. Might compare it to a 35 rem if anything.

IF you are going to reload, might want to start with a case of TrailBoss powder an make it about 80% full.

Remember we don't want to hurt that rifle or you.

Good luck.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,241 Posts
The gloss finished stock has me baffled. Is it a refinished 1903 or a 1950 in an odd caliber?
I love old MS!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
Found load data for both in Lyman Handbook 42nd Edition dtd 1960

I check my load from 40 years ago and it was 43 gr. 4895 with 250 grain and no signs of pressure at all.

First I am going to check case capacity with 4895.

Quick Load Program lists 9X56 MS and 180 gr Sierra and 43 grains may be about max I could load with base of bullet even with bottom of case neck. I don't want a compressed load.



Enlarge your screen to 200% and loads can be compared.

I tried my newly formed cases in the rifle today and they chambered without binding anywhere.

Tomorrow they party in the tumbler with stainless steel pins about two hours then they get their necks/shoulders stress relieved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts


Tumbled the cases in stainless pin media yesterday and stress relieved the neck and shoulders of the cases.
 

·
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
Joined
·
23,815 Posts
Looking good, Humpy! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
When I stress relieved the cases I wound up changing my technique a tad. In normal 30.06 I put the bright blue inner flame on propane torch just below the shoulder and I noticed they were only turn blue and 1/8" below the shoulder so I changed and applied the heat about 1/2" below shoulder for five seconds and neck down further in the bright blue flame for 2 seconds and they came out as above.

Next time I make some I might try stress relieving before shoulder rollback to see if that makes sizing easier.

I wound up making a fixture set where I FL sized them and used a arbor press to form them and this worked much slicker.

It's amazing when you have a lathe what you can do to make case forming easier or bullet seating tension exactly where you want it.
 

·
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
Joined
·
23,815 Posts
A discontinued Hornady annealing set of shell holders are my handheld method. Put that inner blue tip of the propane torch where it is at the shoulder/neck junction and using a cordless screwdriver to turn the cases, keep it there until the first hint of blue chases down the case body. Used to drop them in a 3 lb coffee can of water, however, now they are dumped on a damp work cloth to air cool.


No matter how you anneal, the results are well worth the effort for case longevity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
I finally made an annealer from some scraps in my shop. It uses a small synchronous AC motor that turns at a constant speed of 12 RPM. I made a pulley for the motor and slightly larger pulleys for the feed spool and heating drum. They have to turn at the same RPM but at about 8 seconds per revolution. There is a slot in the drum for feeding and dumping the case so it has to turn slow enough for the case to be heated for about 6 to 7 seconds. That brings the temperature to between 750 and 800 at which point it drops into a pan to cool. I used 1-1/2" angle irons as the feed magazine so it will hold about 200 30-06 cases. I can run any rimless case from 223 to 30-06 without any changes other that sliding the torch head so the flame hits the shoulder of the case. For less than $20 it is as good as any I have seen.
 

Attachments

·
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
Joined
·
10,470 Posts
Curious to know how hot the body and web areas are getting.

RJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
THe process drawing from Frankford Arsenal said 30 rpm for about 6 seconds. They were not dropped in to water.

Shell holders take too much effort.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xFZhuiHLTVuyjilfIk_1OxSebT1Y7czQ/view?usp=sharing
click on above for drawing. Make several lengths for 308, 30.06 etc.


The holder is made from 3/4" round stock turned to 3/8" on one end and a 12 to 5/8 hole drilled in other. Just put in variable speed drill, set it in motion and drop cases in the front, heat them, drop them out on towel. No getting burned, or time lost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I have the 9x57; I make up ammo using new 8x57 brass and a 9mm neck-sizer. I picked up a bunch of very old Remington-UMC and Winchester ammo and pulled the bullets--280gr--and made up some loads from them. Mine did show some pressure difference in using 358 bullets; most of my ammo uses 245gr bulletd pulled from Kynoch 9x57 ammo, which shot OK when the primers went off but that wasn't consistent enough for hunting, especially bear hunting. Surprisingly enough, some of the old US ammo was for both 9's, the Mauser and the Mannlicher, but I suppose was made to the Mannlicher spec and fireformed naturally to the other. I do have some 8x56MS brass laying around from Bertram, but it didn't cycle in my 8x56 Model 1908; go figure! Good rounds, both of them, but way beyond what my arthritic shoulder will handle these days.
windy
windy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,357 Posts
I made my first cases from 8MM Mauser commercial ammo which was easiest to do and can be done by just firing 8MM ammo and blowing the cases out but about 20 years ago I did some continual reloading of Lake City 30.06 match cases and I reloaded one case 157 times and the primer pocket is still snug.

US MILSPEC cases and designed for worst conditions and extra draw steps really harden the lower end of the cases.

I shot highpower competition with a Frankford Arsenal ammo engineer who had transferred to Picatinny when FA was shut down and he told me that long case life depends on several things. How hard the case head is and how to stress relieve the necks and shoulders.

He said if you care for cases properly you should never get a split neck and I have not had one in over 25 years.

I had a conversation with ammo engineers from Federal while at Camp Perry in the 90s and I asked them why the FED MATCH 308 was only good for two or three reloads and they told me the don't use as many draw steps as were used by the arsenals as a cost of production savings effort.

I had a Remington ammo engineer tell me their cases were good for about 7 reloads and one from Winchester tell me 5 or 6.

When the head is softer it expands on firing and you will notice primers losing their snugness which will be followed by leaking gas around the primers that will cut into your bolt face which I did not want.

I have run testing on 7.62 match as well and did not take any special care and 75 yo 90 reloads were no problem.

It is kind of like changing oil in your car. The life of the engine depends on good oil changed regularly.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top