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*Subject: *A Jewish Problem

A Jewish businessman in Chicago sent his son to Israel for a year to
absorb the culture.

When the son returned, he said, "Papa, I had a great time in Israel .

By the way, I converted to Christianity."

"Oy vey," said the father. "What have I done?" He took his problem
to his best friend, Ike.

"Ike," he said, "I sent my son to Israel , and he came home a

What can I do?"

"Funny you should ask," said Ike. "I too, sent my son to Israel ,
and he also came home a Christian.

Perhaps we should go see the rabbi."

So they did, and they explained their problem to the rabbi.

"Funny you should ask," said the rabbi. "I, too, sent my son to
Israel ,

and he also came home a Christian. What is happening to our young

And so they all prayed, telling the Lord about their sons.

As they finished their prayer, a voice came from the Heavens:

"Funny you should ask," said the Voice..

"I, too, sent my Son to Israel . . ."

God Bless You!

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· Inactive
437 Posts
I sent my Son...

I thoroughly enjoy such lite humor because I studied the History of Christianity for six long years. My heritage is Native American and Hebrew, so I get to see "it" from lots of perspectives. I wanted to argue with the Mormons, but they are a perfect mirror image of ancient Hebrew; As we both recognize that there are probably millions of honest to goodness gods in heaven, but there is only the Top Three whom we worship. I am also a Christian, although I wasn't reared to become one. Hopefully someday we can all look back and laugh about all of these supposed crazy differences in serving God! Bring on the humor. I have a whole box full of Jewish jokes: Did you know that Sarah smoked?

· Inactive account
784 Posts
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
there are not Three Gods. There is one and only one God who is the maker of heaven and earth and the redeemer of fallen humanity.

for truth seekers I recommend reading Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy as a study guide to knowing God through Scripture.



· Registered
666 Posts
there are not Three Gods. There is one and only one God who is the maker of heaven and earth and the redeemer of fallen humanity.

for truth seekers I recommend reading Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy as a study guide to knowing God through Scripture.


Prove it beyond a doubt and don't start the 'you've got to have faith' bit. You just screwed-up a nice post with a little humor.

· Inactive
437 Posts
The original and only religion was revealled to Adam

The Greeks weren't authorized to change it, nor were the so called-Christians either. True salvation is in the Dieties of The Jews. Every modern church "claims" to understand God much better than the Jews while also condemning everything about them and everything that they have ever belieced. We can't condemn the Jewish Gods and also claim to worship them, but the "only God" that I worship is the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the HolySpirit. Still: There are three of them!

· Inactive
437 Posts
The Greeks Changed It About 140 A.D.

Greek philosophies replaced most of what the original Apostles taught by 140, including polytheism which was the Jewish concept of worshipping God as three distinct personages, not a three in one incorporated being. Besides the early Gentile converts rejected "everything" Jewish from their new religion including the Jewish concept of God and the need of proper priesthood authority, which Christendom has been without eversince then. Those of us of the Hebrew lineage who have accepted Christ as our Savior; do so with the original Hebrew doctrines of God; rejecting all of the ideas that have been perpetuated by the Gentiles in the past 2000 years. So I accept Christ ( who was a Jew), but I rejectGentile theology

· Banned
1,508 Posts
I was always under the impressed Jesus Christ was scared during much of his crucifixion, if that is true, then how could it be god? In order to sacrifice your ONLY son, you actually have to have a son, not do it yourself in human form, then what is the sacrifice?

· Inactive
437 Posts

Its tragic to me that there is very little actual truth in the Gentile Bible about the life of Jesus and God the Father. I'm also apalled at how much these few truths have been twisted by unispired Ministers of many stripes. I let the record speak for itself as far as it can, although I also have the original untainted scriptures at my disposal. Keep digging for Truth and the HolySpirit will reveal the real truth to you.

· Banned
267 Posts
I hate to break it to you but the Jews were polytheists too. Go back and read Genesis where Adam and Eve are hiding from "God".
"God" runs back to the other gods and says "Now they shall be as us."

In the original scripture the word for "Gods" was "Elohim."
These were the Hebrew tribal gods.
"El" is a semetic prefix or suffix meaning "God.'

The classic Archangles from judeo christtian lore are the Elohim.

Michael was the War God.
Gabriel was the god of something else and so forth.

Jawheh or Jehova was a fairly minor dieity until about 700 B.C. when the Jews finally adopted Monotheism. Suddenly Jawheh become adopted as the Father God and the other Elohim get demoted to "angel" status.

In fact, Abraham probably worshipped Michael as he was going to sacrafice Isaac to Moloch, which was the god worshipped in that country. Michael stopped Abraham, who began following this new god.
Jawheh first pops up in the story of Moses and the burning bush. Notice he is hardly more than what we would consider a Genie or Storm God. Moses and the Israelites carry Him around in a little box covered with gold and bronze as he has no physical body. Very similar to the Genie in the bottle myths common to that part of the world.
Around 700 B.C. the various semetic tribes became the Jewish nation. The problem is they all worshipped different gods. Cannanites had El and Ashera, Israelites had Jawheh and Astarte, etc... Older semitic people had Gabriel or Michael ad infinitum.
The priests got together and decided that they would just have one god, period and that way they could speak for that god- and lord it over the common folk.
(This is the same reason why Pharoe Akhenaton invented Monotheism in the first place a few centuries before when some of the Habiru mercenaires - semites- were his bodyguards).
The thing is, they KEPT THE OLD STORIES.
They just changed the different gods into one new god.
If you ever read the entire bible cover to cover (and most people refuse to) you discover God acts differently from chapter to chapter in the old testament. In one chapter he is loving and kind- probably Michael. In the next, God is harsh and cruel- probably moloch. In another god is vengeful -Jawheh.
This is why God behaves so weird in the Good Book. Its not one god, its different gods.

As for the idea of Trinity, thats an old Pagan concept from Indo European religions which oftn had a tripartate system of rulership both political and religious.
Note that Celtic and Norse gods often travel in threes. Odin, Thor and Frey for example, or Morrigan, Macha and Nemain.
Jesus never claimed to be God. Read your Bible. Jesus called Himself "The son of Man."
He taught that we are all brothers and sisters under God the Father. Note he never said which god though. People assumed that as Jesus was Jewish that he was the son of the Jewish god.
Later, that lead to disputes between Jews and early Christians - who were considered to be Jews too- about whether or not Jesus was the expected messiah.
What you have to remember is that the Messiah was to be a warlord, like King David, and Jesus was hardly a warlord.
Christians could not agree on whether or not Jesus was a god, the son of a god, an avatar of some god, or just a teacher for 300 years.
In 325 a.d. Roman Emporer Constantine invented the modern form of Organized Religion Christianity which declared that Jesus was both the son of god and the same as god.
Strict monotheists like Bishop Aryas disagreed- and were generally assassinated.
The Roman religion became the official state religion for the same reason that Akhenaton invented monotheism. Constantine wanted one god, one church under his own control in his empire so he could claim divine authority for himself. God and you had nothing to do with it.
Thats what organized religion is about- politics, not spiritualit y or faith.

Later, when the early church began studying Jewish beleifs they found out that for most of their history the different Jewish tribes (semites) worshipped a god AND a goddess. El and Astarte, Jawheh and ashera, etc...
The jews explained that the goddess Ashera, Astarte, Ishtar, etc... became "The Shekinah" or the Divine creative principal. This was the basis for the "Holy Ghost" of the Christian Trinity.
One of the easiest books to access some of this stuff is The Hiram Key, which is mostly about Freemasonry, but has a lot about early Pre-Organized Religion Christianity.
God against the Gods by Jonathan Kersh has plenty of information too about how Judaism eventually adopted monotheism over time.
Note that even the ten commandments does not deny there are other gods, only that Jawheh, or Moses God is the tribal god of the Jews and as such he is of primary importance to them over the gods of other people.
Note that the Samaritans were basically pagans and yet Jesus accepts them as being good people and in some cases ,better people than his own coreligionists in the two different parables about Good Samaritans.
The things people beleive today about religion are not the same as the things people beleived 2000 or 3000 years ago. Holy writings and teachings change over time. Usually to benefit who ever is in charge politically at the time.
Want another example?
When you pray, most folks say "Amen." Why are you saying "Ammon" which is the name of an Egyptian pagan diety?
Becuase the new religoius beleifs are grafted onto old ones.

Want an example of how kings and priests used this "one god " stuff to benefit themselves. Look at the dietary restrictions. In the bronze and iron age only the wealthy had cattle. But poor people lived on pigs, chicken and fish.
Suddenly, one day a priest proclaims that Pork is unclean and you cannot eat it because "God" says so.
So, you have to buy beef for food. Which benefited the noble classes who owned cattle. Prior to that, you ate pork and shrimp. But now shrimp is unclean too. God says you cannot eat it.
In reality if "God" did not want you to eat pigs or shrimp they would be poisonous like that japanese puffer blowfish and you would die instantly.
God didn't say that crap. Kings and priests thought it up to benefit themselves.
Ditto with the rebuilding of the temple and reinstatement of sacrafices.
At one point, God tells one of the patriarchs those things are no longer needed. 200 years later a king comes along and decides to rebuild it and reinstate the sacrafices because "God" says so.
Did you know that in those days, many temples made a small fortune selling animals to the public for sacrifice?

· Banned
267 Posts
Vis a vis real "Christianity" as opposed to organized religion, if Jesus didn't say it, its not important.
Remember, Jesus could read and write. If he wanted you to have a book to go by, he would have written one. Why would he wait until 300 years after his death for a Roman ruler to order a guy named Eusibias to come up with one?

Pauls letters are Pauls opinions. Remember when Paul met Peter they did not get along. Peter travelled with Christ and knew him. Peter was chosen by Christ to lead His church. Paul had no real authority until the Roman Government put him in the official book it cobbled together in 327 A.D.

The only reason people in North America beleive that "The Bible is the word of God" is because when the Presbyterians came about in the 1600s and had the Bible rewritten to suit them (they removed two books from Macabees for example), the Catholics claimed "The Pope is Infalliable." To which the Presbyterians and other Protestants countered by saying "No, the Bible is infalliable.'
Obviously they were not arguing on fact. If you have read the Bible (and I have) cover to cover front to back you find it is FULL of errors and contradictions. God says one thing in one chapter and something else in the next. Even Paul gives three different versions of his convrsion story, the details of which do not match up.
Which is why Thomas Jefferson came up with the Jefferson Bible, which contained ONLY the quotes of Jesus. Jefferson argued that everything else was suspect and had probably been tampered with to suit kings and priests....Which is pretty much true.
Our modern "Red Letter" editions with those quotes in red are from the Jefferson Bible.

Lots of stuff that people argue about "in the Bible" is stuff Jesus never said.
Jesus never said to hate anybody, for example.
Also, Jesus never obeyed a lot of those "Biblical" rules himeself, either.
Now if Jesus ignored the dietary laws and he was god, or god's son, don't you think that maybe it was not "god's " idea at all in the first place and in fact it was some huckster king or priest who came up with it?
The simple rule of thumb is that if Jesus didn't say it, it doesn't matter.
What Jesus said is so important and it is practicaly buried under a mountain of malarky that did not exist when He walked the earth.
Jesus taught that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. And if we LIVED our lives as He said to, loving each other , sharing, etc... we would have no wars, no famine and no hardships that could not be endured.
All that malarky that most people talk about came 300 years later and would no doubt have angered or upset Him.
Remember, Jesus said, "By their deeds ye shall know them."
He also warned his true followers to beware wolves in sheeps clothing.
Every time I see one of these Holy Roller hucksters abusing religion to spread fear and hatred to line their own pocket I remember Jesus instructions and the phrase "the truth will set you free."

· Banned
267 Posts
I thoroughly enjoy such lite humor because I studied the History of Christianity for six long years. My heritage is Native American and Hebrew, so I get to see "it" from lots of perspectives. I wanted to argue with the Mormons, but they are a perfect mirror image of ancient Hebrew; ?
You may find this interesting....
I have studied religion for 30 or more years....
One thing I realized early on is that somehow a lot of ideas get cross fertilized.

Even MORMON ideas. The idea that when we die we become angels is a Mormon idea. I can find no examples of it in old Europe or the British Isles, let alone the middle east.
Yet, most "Christians" today of the protestant beleif have this mormon concept as one of the cornerstones of their faith.
It aint in the Bible.

Another example is the Book of Enoch. It was lost until about 300 years or so ago when a Scotsman found an Ethiopian Bible that still contained it. There is a TINY bit from Enoch in Genesis 6, vis a vis the war in heaven and the Nephalim.
Yet even though the Book of Enoch was missing for over a thousand years, most people who never read it basicaly know what is in it. (They just have the names wrong.)
Enoch talks about how the rebel angels came to earth and taught men how to make weapons of metal for war and how they taught women to use sorcery and cosmetics to lure men. The leader of the rebel angels was Samael, though. Not Satan.
If you read the Bible (and most don't) you will be dissapointed when you go looking for the devil in there because he did not exist back then (being invented later by the Roman church t o scare people or confuse them ).
In the Bible Ha-Satan tempts Job in the old testament and he tempts Jesus in the new. Thats it. There is no Zoroastrian prince of Darkness in there.
Even as late as the 1300s, the Church complained that pagans still worshipped their old heathen gods and goddesses....
Then one day the Church invents the Devil, who happens to look like Pan or Herne and acts like Surtr or Loki.....All figures from Pagan religions.
You gessed it. The new "Devil "gets cobbled in there and confused with older figures like Satan, god's prosecutor and Lucifer, who was a Galatian sun god.

Some of these things get handed down verbally in oral tradition when they are not actually scriptural.
Today, you can buy a copy of the Book of Enoch. You can also buy the books of the Apocrypha and even translations from the Nag Hammadi texts and dead sea scrolls and see for yourself how this stuff got c hanged and altered over time.

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437 Posts
Satan as a myth

In our Hebrew traditions, Satan or something like him never really existed before 800 B.C. He was borrowed from Pagan religions to explain where evil habits come from. The story of War In Heaven in a pre-earth exixistence is plainly understood as having been perpetuated by someone called Lucifer. Throughout the Bible, an awfull lot of happenings are conveniently blamed on these characters. What difference does it really make? I think that too many times we use such characters as scapegoats for our own actions.

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Concerning AW Tozer

there are not Three Gods. There is one and only one God who is the maker of heaven and earth and the redeemer of fallen humanity.

for truth seekers I recommend reading Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy as a study guide to knowing God through Scripture.


Thanks for the words of truth.

If you like Tozer's writings, I would also recommend " The Attributes of God ". Another great work by him- " The Pursuit of God - The Pursuit of Man ". And one more of my favorites by
him- " Whatever Happened to Worship? ".

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. "

· Banned
267 Posts
In our Hebrew traditions, Satan or something like him never really existed before 800 B.C. He was borrowed from Pagan religions to explain where evil habits come from. The story of War In Heaven in a pre-earth exixistence is plainly understood as having been perpetuated by someone called Lucifer. Throughout the Bible, an awfull lot of happenings are conveniently blamed on these characters. What difference does it really make? I think that too many times we use such characters as scapegoats for our own actions.

The war in heaven story may be a Semetic borrowing of the story of the gods vs the giants.
In Indo European myth you have the story of Zeus and the Olympians fighting the Titans.
In the Norse myths its Odin, Thor and the Aesir fighting the Giants.

Just as the story of the great flood from the stories of Gilgamesh were borrowed by the Semites for the basis of the Noah myth.

Problem is, there really is no devil figure in Christianity till about 1375 a.d. Prior to that Pagans are just pagans. The closest you can find is Satan from Judaism and Satan was sort of a tester or tempter not a "devil" per se. Many academics can explain how the devil figure is combined from the Zoroastrian figure of Ahriman (I think that was the name).
In Zoroastrianism you have two gods at war. A good god called Mazda and an evil one, Ahriman. They had a dualistic beleif system which did not exist in either Judaism or early Christianity.
The figure in the Bible of Lucifer is a Galatian (Celtic) sun god. Probably the Turks version of Lugh Lamfada or "Lugh of the Long Arm" from Celtic myths in Ireland.
Some Celtic beleifs besides the trinity got borrowed by early Christians.
For example in the British and Gaulish lands there was a trinity of gods known as Essus, Taranis and one other diety. Taranis was the thunder god. Essus was a sort of tree god, pictured hanging from a tree....
Sound familiar?

According to Morton Smith, Jesus probably worked in Egypt where he probably learned hermetic beliefs and such. People in Jesus times accused him of being a Goetist or Magician.
Similar to Simon Magus and Appolonyus of Tyanna. Smith notes that Jesus and Appolonius were only two of many magicians and healers who went around in that region performing miracles and exorcisms and healings and that unlike the rest, Jesus and Appolonyus did not charge for them.
I have read other historians who argue that some of the stories about Jesus probabl were originally stories about Appolonyus, who had a disciple named Lucian (Luke).
2000 years ago the middle east was full of religions about dying and revived "Saviors" (Hercules being another one) and it was full of living "Gods" who were men who were beleived to be mortan incarnations of gods.
What many modern folks don't understand is that "God" meant something very different back then than it does today.
The idea of an all powerful god who sits and waits to lay the smackdown on you did not exist back then. That and a lot of other fundamentalist beleifs is not very old and in fact it came out of the Protestant reformation.
For about a thousand years the Christian Church was "the new Religion" and was but one of many....After the Crusades ONLY did the church start claiming it was the only real religion claiming the others were false- and threatening people and exterminating "heretics".
And that lasted about five centuries. Next thing you know you had schisms all over the place with King Henry, Martin Luther, King James, ad infinitum....
If you actually study what Jesus said and did, and study what the group known as the Essenes were like, you see that Jesus had a sort of blueprint for how people should live togetehr in peace and harmony.
And if people would utilize it, we really would have the kingdom of heaven here on earth...

· Inactive
437 Posts
I already knew all of that

There were actually thirtyseven Savior- Gods who were born of human virgins, who died and were resurrected, and judged the dead. All of these were already being practiced in Palestine before Jesus was even born. Ain't that a coincidence? This ends my end of the comments on this thread. Lets try something different.:)

· Banned
1,006 Posts
I believe that the majority of this thread has been a load of hooey. I would love to see some citations from scholarly sources for the false history being portrayed here.

I will pray for you.

· Banned
267 Posts
I believe that the majority of this thread has been a load of hooey. I would love to see some citations from scholarly sources for the false history being portrayed here.

I will pray for you.
"God against the Gods" -Jonathan Kersh.
"Origin of Pagan and Christian Beliefs" Ed Carpenter.
"Jesus the Magician" -Morton Smith.
"The Christ" - (I think the author's name was Degobert or something similar. He was a popular Biblical historian from the 1920s in France).

Those are just a few recent reads.
Also of interest would be

"The Hiram Key" by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas - which is mostly about freemasonry but has a LOT of information about the Essenes and the early pre-Roman Christians.

I have studied this stuff on and off for more than 20 years. I noticed when I read the Bible cover to cover the first time (at age seven) that a lot of what I had been taught in Church was basically not true, and that a lot of claims made did not really add up.
For example, the Bible is FILLED with contradictions. Probably the best examples being the different versions of Paul's conversion story.
Look at some examples where the Bible says Christ was coming back soon in the Disciples lifetime, including John 321:22-23; Romans 13:11; Corintiahsn 7-29-31; 10:11, 15:51-52, First Thessalonians 4:15-18, First Timothy 6:14, Second Timothy 4:1-3, James 5:8-9; Hebrews 1:1-2 and 8:13; Peter 1:20 4:7, 17 and Jude 17-23.
But he didn't.
• Matthew 2:13-15 says immediatly after his birth Jesus family fled to Egypt to avoid Herod's massacre, an account that does not jibe at all with Luke 2:21-39, which is very different having the family go to Jerusalem after his circumcision and then returning to Nazareth and making an annual return to Jerusalem every year after that

• Judas hanged himself in Matthew 27:5 but in Acts he falls and splits himself open (presumably on a sword) (Acts 1:18).

Ask the typical protestant minister a question about this stuff and you get a nonsensical answer like "I will pray for you." Because typically they don't know- they have not studied this stuff. They just study doctrines and never wonder about WHERE those doctrines really came from or when. Let alone why.
Just like their followers, most of them have never sat down and read the Bible from beginning to end in order. They read it like they want you to read it. A line here a chapter there, a passage over there, out of order. Out of context.
Could you get anything out of any 700 page book read that way?
When you understand that in the original Pentatuch, (old testament) written in the 8th century B.C.E., there isn't a clearly monotheistic statement to be found, and that a century later the author of Deuteronomy has Joshua threatening the Israelites and making sure they became monotheistic under threat of being destroyed, and that the different semetic tribes that became "the Jews" worshipped a pantheon prior to that, it makes it easier to understand why god behaves one way in one story and an entirely different way in another.
It was stories about different gods.
It also makes you understand why "God" rushes back to the other "gods" in Genesis and says "now they shall be as us."
Organized religion is about politics. And just as politics changes and evolves over time, so did organized religion.

As per what Swampdoc says, Scott Bidstrup notes,"Virtually every story surrounding Jesus, whether it be the virgin birth (borrowed from the myth of the birth of Tammuz, a pagan god from northern Israel who was supposed to have been born of the virgin Myrrha), the miracle stories found in the Bacchus and Isis cults, the betrayal and crucifixion, were part of one or more of the pagan religions of the time. "
Remember, the Essenes was the church started by Jesus and John the Baptist that was run by James, Jesus' brother. That is what Christianity was SUPPOSED TO BE.
The Essenes were so admired even the Romans left them alone because of their pious, blameless lives.
On the other hand....
The other Christian groups, especially the one started by Paul were HEAVILY influenced by Greek myths and religions and the Greek veiw of things.
For example, a lot of the Hercules myth wound up being retread in the way Jesus was viewed by the early Greek influenced Christians. In the myths, Hercules was known as "The Savior" and Hercules toiled to benefit mankind and was often tortured on behalf of humanity. When he died on Mt. Oetna, the human part of him burned away and the divine part ascended to Mt. Olympus with his heavenly father, Zeus....
So you have a savior who is part human, part son of god, who dies for humanity and is ressurrected as a god. Other examples would be Tammuz, Mithra, etc...

What it boils down to is this. Jesus said and did what he said and did for the best of reasons. IE that if we would follow those teachings we really and truly would be living in the Kingdom of God. No wars. No crime. No hatred. A true paradise on earth.

Jesus called himself "The Son of Man" and taught that we are all children of a divine parent and thus should treat each other as family with love and tolerance and understanding. Which divine parent is not important, nor are the miracles done. What is important is the message. A message that gets glossed over because Political types know that it is hard to get you to stop being selfish or self oriented, so they babble on about things like souls, the after life and such. Jesus knew that if we lived a life of love and brotherhood we would benefit spiritually.
Remember, Appolonius of Tyanna was a contemporary of Jesus, and he went around performing miracles too. He also cast out demons and healed people and charged nothing. In his time, he was actually better known than Jesus. The only reason we still remember Jesus today is becuase of politics and because Jesus had a MESSAGE that was different than anybody else in those days. A message about selflessness.

Politicians created an organized religion out of Christianity and starting in the fifth century A.D. they started converting people ....First by influence, later by bribery and by the tenth century by forcible conversion at swords' point.
Organized religion is not about that. Its not about benefitting you or god. Its about benefitting whoever is in charge.
If 90 percent of the earth's resources are controlled by 10 percent of the population there really is enough for everybody if we just share and live as family.

This was a pretty radical message in a time when folks did not put much effort into charity and such when Jesus walked the earth. 300 years later, politicians decide to use this new movement to base an organized religion about it for purely political reasons. From 325 a.d. to today, you have people schisming off, borrowing the Roman book, the Roman doctrines and the Roman dogmas, but notice nobody seems to be trying to go back and recreate Christianity as it was in Christ's time. Its just "do it yourself" Catholocism run by a local minipope.

Those doctrines and those doctrines are not important. What is important is what Jesus said and taught. Jesus said and taught love, not fear and not hatred.
Organized religion cannot exist without fear and hatred, because Organized Religion is a tool used by people to advance themselves, not God or man.

The truth will set you free.
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