I am NOT such a shooter, but I must interpose a question raised by your post. What diameter plate are you talking about?

Also some comments on History As I Know It: The smooth bore was the first used type of firearm barrel and it's use extended over a great length of time in Military Service, even occasionally to this very day.

Yes they are Relatively inaccurate at any long distance, which is why they had Long barrel lengths in order to extend the effective range in battle,

Tactics were generally the 'massed volley technique, where opposing ranks of troops were marched to within the Effective Range of the firearms of the time then ordered to fire in long line groups at the opposing line of troops, The British had a tactic that used two or three lines of troops close behind each other so the first line fired, then stepped back slightly as they reloaded and the second or third line fired, this gave the British sustained fire in a reasonably controlled battle condition.
Yes they were close to their opposing line, but the inaccuracies of the arms dictated the tactics.

Man sized targets standing shoulder to shoulder still made it possible to inflict numerous casualties, which usually all proved fatel in the long run, what with the poor Hygiene and Sanitation of the era, were numerous, that is why an Army started out with large number of troops and were termed 'cannon fodder'.

Still, the 'carnage' was less, relatively, than un-armored battles between blade wielding Serfs/troops in earlier times.

 

cayugad,

My first muzzleloader was purchased used for $155 in 1979. It was a flintlock .45 caliber T/C Hawken and came with an additional smoothbore .50 barrel. The prior owner lived in MA and there only smoothbores were legal for ML deer hunting. I since bought other MLs, but still like the .50 smoothbore. I shoot shot loads for early season grouse and squirrel and the roundball is used in PA deer season. My cast .50 roundball, ahead of 75 grains 2F Goex and a .010" patch will stay in a nice group at 75 yards from the bench.

Webley

 

my smooth bore was a Green Mountain Barrel .62 caliber that fit in my Renegade Stock. I purchased it because I had been talking to musket shooters who claimed they could hit a 8 inch paper dinner plate at 75 yards consistently. So I was kind of taken in the moment. So I got a smooth bore and began working loads up. I stated at 60 grains like suggested. I tried paper patching, cloth patching, no patching, shotgun wads cut off under the ball... and various powder charges.

While the impact down range was very impressive.. Like I said.. 44 steps was the best I ever could get out of it. In fact I once shot at a brown grocery bag at 75 yards. I shot five times off a rest. And I managed to clip a corner of it once.

The person I talked to or should say talked me into getting a SB I finally got to see shoot one afternoon at a Rendezvous. We were doing a 2x4 shoot where you cut the board in half as a team. While he could out load us hands down.. he only nicked the board, barely grazing it, once. When I later wanted to see him shoot the 75 yards... he declined. So I was always wondering.. was this a brag. Or a boast.

Hearing you shooting the 50 at that distance tends to make me think he was having a bad day, and I just never did find the sweet load for that smooth bore I had. I eventually sold the barrel warning the seller that the best I could get out of it might not be hunting friendly with a ball. But he had read that they were more accurate then that and was sure he could get better accuracy. I never have talked to him since the sale.


chevwilliam ... I agree with what you are saying. I watched the History Channel one afternoon. A man with a Brown Bess almost missed (hitting very low left I believe it was) a 3 foot circle at 75 yards. Then they put up man size targets to re-enact a Civil War firing skirmish. Where a line of men shot two minutes as fast as they could. I forget the distance they were shooting. But they hit almost 50% of the time.. some in the feet, hands, etc.. but a hit. And the impressive thing was, behind the wooden targets were cement cinder block. Those Minne balls just smashed the devil out of them blocks.. So anyone behind that first line that got hit.. would have been in serious trouble.

 

This is one of my other smooth bore shotguns. Its a 12 gauge T/C New Englander. When my dog was still alive and could warn me of an upcoming shot.. I used to love hunting grouse with it. You only got one shot, but I could make them count most (not all) the time..

I have another smooth bore 12 gauge. Its a Knight TK2000 shotgun. That is for hunting turkey with. Loaded properly, it will knock a bird down at 40 yards no problem. But it kicks like a mule. Still, I only have to shoot it once to make it work. A very nice hunting shotgun.

 

Do you remember what the barrel length was, from muzzle to inside of the breech plug?
I believe the Brown Bess had a barrel length in excess of 36 inches originally. with over all musket length somewhere around the chin of the average British solder of the era.

Best regards,
Chev. William

 

The Brown Bess Musket I saw shooting was a ,75 caliber and the barrel had to be 42 inches or more. It was a most impressive rifle. My 12 gauge new englander has a choke that screws inside the barrel. Therefore I don't think it can shoot ball, as it might damage the threads of the choke. And besides, I have lots of muzzleloaders to shoot. So why risk my shotgun.

 

Yes, a very impressive firearm I am sure. The .75 ball would have been a definite 'wound generator' if fired in volley at a line of targets, and probably shattered any bone it hit.
Thank you for the reply.

 

I have a Navy Arms double barrel 12 gauge. The barrels are improved cylinder and cylinder bore. The cylinder bore barrel will consistently put a round ball into a paper plate at 50 yards with a load of 105 grains of FFg, but I've never been able to hit consistently at even 25 yards from the improved cylinder barrel or with light loads in the cylinder bore. Shooting a nearly 500 grain cast lead ball in front of an almost maximum charge from a shotgun with a steel butt plate isn't the most painful recoil I've experienced, but after half a dozen shots or so, the groups really grow.

I also have a .54 caliber percussion smoothbore that I picked up fairly cheaply. It's a Spanish made muzzle loader with no manufacturer name stamped on it, and it has a very thin walled barrel that's about 32" long. With an unpatched 230 grain ball, it hits a six inch target most of the time out to about 45 or 50 yards. I think that's pretty good for a gun with nothing but a simple bead sight. I haven't shot more than 60 grains of FFg from it in deference to the thin barrel walls, even though the breech is much heavier.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that the reputation the brown bess has for poor accuracy stemmed from the facts that the British soldiers of the era fired a .69 caliber round ball from a .75 caliber barrel, concentrated on speed rather than accuracy, and rarely, if ever, practiced marksmanship.

 

I was reading that a crossbow may be more effective than a smoothbore and ball. I have a friend who hunts with a bow and he said that Indiana now has a crossbow season? Anyway, I had been trying to interest him in muzzleloaders for some time with no luck. Now I am sending him photos of ANTIQUE crossbows and related items trying to get him interested in that. particularly like the ones with "rifle stocks" on them. I had thought about smoothbore and roundball but I think I'd prefer to have two separate firearms instead of one as all around general type thng. I think maybe the folks who claim that their traditional hunting fusils or fowlers are that effective with roundballs are being biased. There is alot of pride with these folks.

 

Some interesting info there.. I am wondering if maybe I never pushed them hard enough. I think the most I ever did my smoothbore was 80 grains of powder. Now I kind of regret selling it. But who know.. there might be another in my future.

 

There are many types of smoothbores as you know. Shotguns, muskets are two common types.
And then there are "smooth rifles".....a term that I personally have difficulty with as there is no rifling....the guns, however are designed to be used like a rifle. They use a rifle stock and rifle sights. Although, you could shoot shot, they are designed to be used with PRBs. They are designed to be aimed, not pointed.
Pete

 

my Green Mountain .62 from your description would have been a smooth rifle. As it had front and rear sights. So now I wonder... did I never push the thing hard enough. Everyone I talked to about it said anything over 80 grains was a waste of powder. But as I said... 44 steps was the best I could do with it. I know at 35 yards I could have hunted with it, No doubt in my mind. And when I tested its penetration it did fantastic with that .600 patched ball.

 

.

The 19th Century muskets weren't expected to be very accurate, since military tactics of the time dictated they be fired in unison with many others on the battle lines, at the same time.

"Volley fire" was the multiple shots forming a veritable rainstorm of lead at the enemy.

Modern smoothbores can be much more accurate - at least my T/C Renegade .56SB was.

My state only allowed smoothbore muzzleloaders for the first several years the muzzleloading deer seasons were allowed here, in the late -60's - since changed to allow rifled muzzleloaders and then later optics also.

I had NP, keeping every shot inside 4" @ 100yds with it's open sights - a bit further than shots @ deer were usually available to me.

The 56SB is also usable as a bird gun, with the advent of 28ga shotcups.




.

 

My smoothbore, a TVM early American flint fowler, can just about compete with a rifle at 25yds. At 50 yards it will stay pretty much inside a 6" circle using a bare ball and wads. With patched ball it can stay in a 3" circle at 50 yards. Either is a deer getter.

 

very nice looking smooth-bore and deer there. That is about what I always "guessed" a smooth-bore was good to. Like I said.. my Green Mountain smooth rifle out to 44 steps was very deadly. After that it was hit and miss.

I have a rifle currently on order with TVM. I am getting kind of excited as it should be done very soon.

 

You'll love your rifle, of course. I have five from TVM and they all are great. I have a rear sight on my smoothbore but the barrel is likely not a heavier, rifle-type barrel as you may have on your smoothrifle. Mine's a typical, octagon to round.

 

My rifle is a .54 caliber Early Lancaster with a Rice swamped barrel. It should be a dandy shooter. I wonder what twist rate Rice uses in their roundball barrels?

 

I wonder what twist rate Rice uses in their roundball barrels?

Put a tightfitting jag on a cleaning rod. Wrap a patch around it and push it all the way down the bore of the rifle. Right at the muzzle mark the 12 o'clock on the cleaning rod with a piece of tape or a marker. Pull the rod out of the barrel until the 12 o'clock mark rotates around to 12 again. Mark the rod again..right at the muzzle.
Remove the rod completely. Measure the distance between the two marks. Voila.
Pete

 

What I guess I mean was.. since they are building the rifle, and it is a roundball twist, I hope they make it as roundball friendly as possible. Most of my roundball guns are 1-66 or 1-70. I was just wondering that since this is a "custom rifle" perhaps it has a special twist in the barrel. Perhaps I will call TVM and ask they how far along they are with the build as it should be getting completed very soon from what they first told me. And at that time I can ask them about the twist in the barrel.

 

There is also the possibility of them using a 'Gain Twist' rifled blank. Starts out slow and increases as the ball nears the muzzle.

 

I have never heard of that. But that is not surprising. Does that make for an accurate round ball rifle?

Since it is a .54 caliber I was once told that like 1-58 was a good twist. Although I never heard why. I guess time will tell.

 

You're gonna Love the TVM rifle

Cayugad,

I had TVM build me a Early Virginia .54 Cal Flintlock. It has a Rice swamped barrel. You are going to be real happy. Mine shoots almost one hole 50 yards. I've also added a 1861 Springfield, it is a defarbed Armi Sport that shoots well with the right minie or PRB.

I still have my Black Mountain .50 cal Caplock, Deerstalker flintlock .54 the CVA Accura .50 cal.

I'm going to use my Great Plains .54 caplock for muzzleloader season in NY this year. I load her with 80 gr Goex 3f and a .535 PRB.

Glad to see you are still enjoying the ML sports. Been away from the forum for awhile due to health issues. Retired in May after 31 years and slowly getting back to having ML fun again.

Rice Barrels are typically 1 in 66 or 1 in 70 twist.

Good Hunting
Charlie

 

I have at least 5 muzzle loaders at the place, one my oldest son's. He has a .50 cal St. Louis Hawkin and mine is the .54 caliber same rifle. I also have a .50 cal Kentucky Long Rifle too. I almost forgot about the 41-cal and .58 Tenn. Long Rifle with half round octagon barrel. To many folks in the woods and houses being built more and more around us. We have our fun, shooting them down at the gun club and at various "rendezvous" throughout Arkansas, Missouri and Kentucky.

 

Smoothbore

My 16 gauge fowler made for me by Mike Brooks (http://fowlingguns.com/):

 

Nice rifle

Nice looking fowler. Mike does Top Notch work. Good luck with her.

Keep your powder dry, good hunting!