[leverite]

Struggling to get decent accuracy (sub 3moa) with my 100 year old Win 95 in 30-40 krag. Tried lots of 30 cal jacketed bullets then wized up and slugged the barrel...0.309". Rifle has a long leade and with 150/180 gr bullets I have not been able to get the bullets seated near the lands.

Wondering about trying gc cast bullets. Should I go 0.002" overbore? Am I on the right track by wanting to go with long heavy bullets...220gr or 200gr? Beartooth has some great bullets, but their 220gr is 0.310" max. They have a 170gr. with a 0.311" option, but it may not be heavy enough. Buying bullets to try is getting expensive and I have no other use for the oversize diameter ones if they don't work in the Win 95.

I could have Jes bore it out to 35 Winchester. I love the 35's and this rifle is not a collector.

Appreciate any thoughts or advise.

Thanks,
leverite

 

[unclenick]

I assume you have the standard 10" twist. In that case, lots of bullets should be capable of shooting well, and in your shoes I would look at some of the conventional 168-grain match bullets. The Hornady's are probably the least expensive of the match grade and I would expect them to do fine if the gun is in good shape. Also, a lot of the Garand shooters like how even some light bullets work. A flat base bullet like the Hornady Interlock 123-grain 0.310 bullet intended for the 7.62×39 would fit your bore and could prove to shoot well.

A question I have is what depth the rifling marks are on your slugs? Some older guns have shallow rifling that can have trouble spinning a bullet well.

The other thing to look at with a gun that age is the condition of the muzzle crown and the rifling just behind the muzzle. Has it funneled any?

Did slugging reveal any tight spots that need to be lapped out? If so, you may never get good accuracy until you get them cleared.

Finally, have you looked for loose attachment of the wood to the rifle and where it touches the barrel and so on?

Unfortunately there are a lot of "usual suspects" in this sort of puzzle.

 

[Magilla26]

I have a model 1898, 30-40 Krag manufactured in 1901. This is not the same gun but the bore slugs at .309" My most accurate load was using a 180 grain Sierra Pro Hunter and H414. 3" group at 100 yds using the factory sights. 3.02" COAL.

 

[Mecanik]

It takes a good set of eyes to shoot sub 3 MOA with open sights. It may not be the gun.

 

[leverite]

It takes a good set of eyes to shoot sub 3 MOA with open sights. It may not be the gun.

I mounted a peep sight with a target orfice. I also have a modern Win 95 in 30-06 set up exactly the same that shoots sub 2moa and occasionally much [email protected] yards.

 

[Mecanik]

Nice. I'm one of the few that like the model 95 also. I have 2 modern ones and two originals. I never really sat down with them to get target accuracy. I probably could never get 2 MOA with my 68 year old eyes but I remember my original 30-40 Krag was quite accurate. I wouldn't be ashamed of 3 moa with any of the lever guns now. My policy on firearms is I won't hunt with a gun that can't shoot 4 moa and I'm reasonably happy with 3 moa and impressed with 2 moa and bragging to anyone I know if I get 1 moa. Which I've only had two guns give me that kind of accuracy. A Ruger #1 in .270 and a stainless Ruger 77 in 7.62x39. The .270 would do it all day but the 7.62x39 needs to be in the right mood.......LOL

 

[leverite]

mmm

Nice. I'm one of the few that like the model 95 also. I have 2 modern ones and two originals. I never really sat down with them to get target accuracy. I probably could never get 2 MOA with my 68 year old eyes but I remember my original 30-40 Krag was quite accurate. I wouldn't be ashamed of 3 moa with any of the lever guns now. My policy on firearms is I won't hunt with a gun that can't shoot 4 moa and I'm reasonably happy with 3 moa and impressed with 2 moa and bragging to anyone I know if I get 1 moa. Which I've only had two guns give me that kind of accuracy. A Ruger #1 in .270 and a stainless Ruger 77 in 7.62x39. The .270 would do it all day but the 7.62x39 needs to be in the right mood.......LOL

The right mood seems most important.
;-)
And perhaps my accuracy standard is a bit unrealistic. But, would like to try an overbore lead gc bullet.

 

[tdoyka]

my 1898 spr armory(1903/bubbaed) really likes a 165gr ranch dog(.311") with h4198 going 1930fps. i slugged the bore and its .3085".

some others at 100 yards

i was sighting this in at 100 yards with open sights(this was done about 8 years ago, now its a redfield no drill aperture sight), 1 thru 6 are single shots trying to get it in, 7 thru 10 are the group)

before

after

 

[ribbonstone]

Not an expert....have had 2 Krags and one 1895 30-40 (antiques) that I loaded for....and looked over a modern (Ruger #3) that I couldn't buy (but did try to talk him into it).

Even without erosion, the old 30-40's not only had a bit of a long throat, were pretty generous in diameter.

Not as concerned about bore dimeter than I am about throat diamter. Good chance your lead bullet loads (and some of the jacket bullet loads) become the throat diameter before they ever see the rifled bore (or at least the rear end of the bullet does).

Pressure level is alow enough that not all jacketed bullets would like obturate to throat size...but some will. Lead bullets (with full loads) almost certainly will.
So might be sweating the bore diameter for no reason.

May not have been the best bullet, but was one I had (still have) a mold that seemed right (Lyman 311299). Pretty much all of them ended up as moderate pressure cast bullet shooters. Looking for accuracy, would start sized .310"...but try other dimeters.

.311" was the "winner"in the two Krags. Also worked in the later 1895. ...which seemed large,but considering it was still a clean fit in the throat ahead of the case, wasn't worried about it.

 

[leverite]

my 1898 spr armory(1903/bubbaed) really likes a 165gr ranch dog(.311") with h4198 going 1930fps. i slugged the bore and its .3085".

some others at 100 yards

i was sighting this in at 100 yards with open sights(this was done about 8 years ago, now its a redfield no drill aperture sight), 1 thru 6 are single shots trying to get it in, 7 thru 10 are the group)

before

after

my 1898 spr armory(1903/bubbaed) really likes a 165gr ranch dog(.311") with h4198 going 1930fps. i slugged the bore and its .3085".

some others at 100 yards

i was sighting this in at 100 yards with open sights(this was done about 8 years ago, now its a redfield no drill aperture sight), 1 thru 6 are single shots trying to get it in, 7 thru 10 are the group)

before

after

Good info. Is that 165 gr. ranch dog a jacketed bullet?

 

[leverite]

Not an expert....have had 2 Krags and one 1895 30-40 (antiques) that I loaded for....and looked over a modern (Ruger #3) that I couldn't buy (but did try to talk him into it).

Even without erosion, the old 30-40's not only had a bit of a long throat, were pretty generous in diameter.

Not as concerned about bore dimeter than I am about throat diamter. Good chance your lead bullet loads (and some of the jacket bullet loads) become the throat diameter before they ever see the rifled bore (or at least the rear end of the bullet does).

Pressure level is alow enough that not all jacketed bullets would like obturate to throat size...but some will. Lead bullets (with full loads) almost certainly will.
So might be sweating the bore diameter for no reason.

May not have been the best bullet, but was one I had (still have) a mold that seemed right (Lyman 311299). Pretty much all of them ended up as moderate pressure cast bullet shooters. Looking for accuracy, would start sized .310"...but try other dimeters.

.311" was the "winner"in the two Krags. Also worked in the later 1895. ...which seemed large,but considering it was still a clean fit in the throat ahead of the case, wasn't worried about it.

Found some 0.311" Sierra jacketed bullets at Sportsmans Warehouse and loaded them w/ 42.5gr of IMR 4350. Got a sub 1" , 3 shot group at 50 yards this afternoon...1.8 moa.

Your experience and tdoyka's convince me that I am on the right track going with bigger diameter bullets.

I have some 210gr gc hardcast bullets ordered from Montana Bullet works...0.310". Seems to be the only bullet casting outfit in the country that will answer their phone, answer your questions and take your order. I do hope to see the bullets before my dementia fully takes over.

Thanks for all the info and advice. I will post results once I get the cast bullets.

 

[MikeG]

Good info. Is that 165 gr. ranch dog a jacketed bullet?

No, that was a custom (cast) bullet mold that Lee came out with a while back. Not sure if you can buy it off the shelf.

 

[tdoyka]

you can still buy them sorta...

Accurate Molds: Custom Bullet Molds

Precision CNC lathe bored custom bullet casting molds. Choose a design from our catalog or submit your own custom design.

www.accuratemolds.com

311-179-FN-I5 | NOE Bullet Moulds

noebulletmolds.com

or you can go to the bull shop

~Bullets ~

About Our Bullets ~ We have been supplying cast bullets to customers now for about 25 years. In that time we have learned that when it comes to shooting lead alloy bullets in...

bullshop.weebly.com

 

[Kal.38]

My uncle had a surplus 30-40 Krag many years ago. I think he paid 75 bucks for it with a hundred rounds included. A few of us younger guys said its an old junker. Youll be lucky if you can even hit a deer ha,ha,ha.
Oh yeah boys?? He walked out the door of deer camp, he shot 4 cinderblocks. About 50 yards from a standing position in 5 seconds.
Looked everyone of us in the eyes then says Not so funny now boys and walks right back in.
Any way that cranky old man used 42grains of BLC or IMR 4895 and .311 diameter 180gr hot-cor. It's a long round nose bullet. He did bag a deer too and used that rifle for many years after.

 

[JDinFbg]

Struggling to get decent accuracy (sub 3moa) with my 100 year old Win 95 in 30-40 krag.

I was having the same issue with my 95 year old Model 94 Winchester chambered from 30 W.C.F. (a/k/a 30-30). In my case, I could not get less than 4"-6" 5-shot groups at 100 yards, even with the rifle fired from a machine rifle rest. I recently purchased a borescope so I could look in the barrel and found a copper mine and lots of pitting. This started the process of doing extensive cleaning to remove all the copper, then running the 50-shot series of Tubb's Final Finish bullets through the rifle. I'm now down to a 2 MOA rifle. FYI, I discovered that the Hoppe's #9 bore cleaner I'd been using for decades was really not effectively removing the copper. I switched to using Bore Tech CU+2 which is much better at getting out the copper, but it still took many, many passes even with this cleaner due to the extent of the copper fouling. So, moral to this story is, check to make sure you do not have excessive fouling built up in your 100 year old rifle. You might want to invest in a borescope (Teslong borescope can be purchased on Amazon for under $40) to take a peak inside to see what's there.

 

[unclenick]

The Boretech products beat the ammonia cleaners, hands down. But when you have that kind of build-up, you need to give it time to work. In an article in the late, great Precision Shooting Magazine, in about 2006, the author pointed out that bore cleaner applied with a patch can keep working up to 20 minutes or so and I would confirm that patching any sooner than 5 minutes later is just a waste of product.

What I do these days is put the cleaner in a cheap Wally World pump sprayer and, with the bolt out and muzzle down (over a bucket or some newspaper), I pump about three sprays into the chamber and watch the liquid run down to the muzzle. At that point, I put silicone stoppers in the muzzle chamber breech point the muzzle up a few seconds little to get some of it back mid-barrel, and then let the gun horizontal in a cradle for an hour or two or even overnight. Patch and repeat until it stops coming out blue. It takes more total time, but a lot less personal attention time.

A product that works even faster on thick copper is KG-12. Its only problem is it doesn't turn blue or green, so you need either a borescope or some of the Boretech product to chase it with as an indicator to prove the copper is gone.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is crowning. I bought a couple of surplus Columbian army 1898 Mausers back in the 1980s from Springfield Sporters by visiting the store and looking at dozens of them. A surprising number had almost unbelievable amounts of funneling at their muzzles (Well beyond any rifling remaining) and would not have shot worth a darn without at least counterboring the muzzles. In a vintage military rifle experiencing accuracy issues, careful scrutiny of the muzzle crown is in order. For the 30 cals, you can get a muzzle erosion gauge intended for the Garand or other 30 cal rifle. If they don't cover enough range, just seeing if a 0.303" pin gauge will enter the muzzle is a good indication this may be an issue for your rifle.

 

[ribbonstone]

Military's passion for keeping hands busy and things that shine for inspection. An old military rifle with an unworn muzzle is a rare thing.

 

[Texas10]

My 1898 Krag 30-40 seems to prefer 220 gr round nose and H4198. It's been sporterized by a decent smith sometime in the 30's I think, with pistol grip, checkering and ivory inlays on the cheek riser. With peep sight it shoots quite well, and a check of the barrel with my teslong reveals very little fire cracking or erosion. I slugged it and it's a .309 but as I said, it shoots really well, and took my first deer with it some 70 years after my dad picked it up in a pawn shop in Waco while in the Army. It was built in Nov, 1898 so it is not considered a firearm by law.

I'll tell you what......that 220 gr round nose is one loooooong bullet!

 

[tdoyka]

The Boretech products beat the ammonia cleaners, hands down. But when you have that kind of build-up, you need to give it time to work. In an article in the late, great Precision Shooting Magazine, in about 2006, the author pointed out that bore cleaner applied with a patch can keep working up to 20 minutes or so and I would confirm that patching any sooner than 5 minutes later is just a waste of product.

What I do these days is put the cleaner in a cheap Wally World pump sprayer and, with the bolt out and muzzle down (over a bucket or some newspaper), I pump about three sprays into the chamber and watch the liquid run down to the muzzle. At that point, I put silicone stoppers in the muzzle chamber breech point the muzzle up a few seconds little to get some of it back mid-barrel, and then let the gun horizontal in a cradle for an hour or two or even overnight. Patch and repeat until it stops coming out blue. It takes more total time, but a lot less personal attention time.

A product that works even faster on thick copper is KG-12. Its only problem is it doesn't turn blue or green, so you need either a borescope or some of the Boretech product to chase it with as an indicator to prove the copper is gone.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is crowning. I bought a couple of surplus Columbian army 1898 Mausers back in the 1980s from Springfield Sporters by visiting the store and looking at dozens of them. A surprising number had almost unbelievable amounts of funneling at their muzzles (Well beyond any rifling remaining) and would not have shot worth a darn without at least counterboring the muzzles. In a vintage military rifle experiencing accuracy issues, careful scrutiny of the muzzle crown is in order. For the 30 cals, you can get a muzzle erosion gauge intended for the Garand or other 30 cal rifle. If they don't cover enough range, just seeing if a 0.303" pin gauge will enter the muzzle is a good indication this may be an issue for your rifle.

does the boretech work on cupronickel bullets? i have tried everything except boretech. .in my first krag, i had a [email protected] of a time scrubbing out the bore to shiny bare steel(6 or 7 nonconsecutive days/8 - 10 each). i used a gunslicks, slicks and shooter choice mc #7. i have a krag that i just recently bought that has a rusty surface. i plan on stripping down to it basic parts and put in a evapo-rust bath.

 

[unclenick]

Tdoyka,

I would expect it to work on any high percent copper alloy. I'm trying to think if I have any cupro-nickel bullets around to test it on. I have some pull-down bullets from M1 Ball, but no way to know if they are pre-1922. Probably not. I would just call Boretech and ask them (267-347-4436). You could also ask KG about their KG-12 product (512-352-3245) for cupro-nickel.