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Discussion Starter #41
"GOD BLESS" each and every one of you contributors!! :) :)
I am seeing the Consensus is to use the Tite Bond 11 yellow glues for Gunstocks. I think that is my next step. I will glue a few pieces for practice on amount and clamping and then do the stock over again. I will be sure to clean the surfaces of and past glue as well.
Thank You everyone for you input. It really is appreciated. I am warmed by all the considerate assistance you have taken the time to contribute.
 

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I've been a hobby cabinet maker for 35 years and on the advice of a friend who was a professional cabinet maker I always use yellow wood glue like Tite Bond and I always use dowels (biscuits do the same thing) and clamp the work. Never had a joint fail. The exception would be oily tropical hardwoods. They don't take water based glues well. With those you need to use epoxy or something non-water based. Also you want to sand the joint surfaces and wipe them with a solvent before gluing. For "normal" woods (oak, walnut, pine, etc.) Tite Bond works great. Don't use white glue.
 

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I rarely ever use dowels and only then for specialty joinery. The problem is they expand during seasonal changes out of sync with the wood you are joining, so if it is a flat tabletop-type piece, you will often see or feel dips and valleys or high spots where the dowels were used. Biscuits are always the better choice because of that, but even they are not needed when edge-joining. A nice, clean jointed edge of walnut or similar native wood needs nothing more than a thin, even spread of glue (on both sides as mentioned by another member), and proper clamping is the strongest and best method. Use biscuits or dowels only when proper edge preparation isn't possible or when the glue=up process is complicated to the point that you need some edge alignment help.. (Edited to clarify: We're speaking of edge gluing where the grain of both pieces are perpendicular. Any end grain and sometimes dissimilar grain changes the scenario completely, but the OP is talking about edge gluing {eh... right?])

In the OPs case, he has already had a failure with Gorilla glue and now the questions are 1) can you get ALL of the Gorilla glue out of both halves of the joint?, and 2) is the mating of the both pieces true? If the answer to both is yes, do the right prep with yellow glue and you'll be as good as you can get. If the answer to either is no, then an edge reinforcement like biscuits or dowels might be the answer.

Regarding white glue: if yellow aliphatic resin was never invented, then white glue would work fine and still be superior to the other glues mentioned. Yellow and whites are essentially the same, with yellow being an advanced formula. These two glues (yellow and white) form a cellular bond with the wood that other glues don't. They also have the proper give and take that other glues don't that allow for seasonal wood movement.

People are afraid to trust the idea that a properly prepared edge joint needs nothing more than yellow glue to hold it stronger than the wood fibers themselves. So there are calls for edge reinforcement, specialty glues that will sometimes work but not as well, and other fixes that are just unnecessary and might even make the problem worse.

ON EDIT: For the OP - don't get stuck just on Titebond II, or even just on the brand name "Titebond". Yellow glue is yellow glue - there are several makers and they're made to the same recipe. Titebond just happens to be available everywhere. The good thing about regular yellow glue is that you have a little more working time than you do with an advanced, water-resistant glue like Titebond II or III. But in all of them, your working time is limited. As another member mentioned, get your edges prepared, your glue brush damp and ready, do your dry runs placing the pieces together and clamping lightly, have your cleanup materials ready... essentially do everything you can do so that, once the glue is spread, the rest of the joining will go smoothly and quickly before the glue begins to set and "skim". There are "slow-set" yellow glues available, but you don't need those for a simple fix of a walnut stock.
 

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A hint for dowels (but I use SS threaded rod) is to drill blind holes in one side and cut slightly longer steel pins with a sharp point on one end. Trim the pins until just the point is proud. Line up the second piece and tap on the end. That center punches for the two other holes.

These are used for fore-end tips which are customarily Gaboon ebony. The ebony blocks are covered in paraffin wax to cure. The wood itself is oily to the extreme. (only lignum Vitea is more so). To hold ebony end grain to walnut end grain under recoil is asking too much, even with degreased ebony and good epoxy. ;) I use sections of #6 SS all thread I bought in 1968 at Alameda Surplus store in Denver. Knowing them, they still have some.....somewhere. :)

I fully agree with the yellow glue use. I use it on furniture with bisuits and traditional dowels and I used a gallon of TiteBond building my timber frame house. (It was too messy in places so subflooring adhesive became the norm.)
 

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Yes, you're right about end-grain gluing. You need reinforcement. No glue ever made, NONE, will ever sufficiently hold end grain to end grain or even end grain to side grain.

Speaking of glue in the building trades: When I was a young carpenter working for a custom home builder, we "cut" all of our roofs, meaning that trusses were not used - the roof was cut and pieced together one rafter at a time (that's a poor explanation). But on a few homes, we built large tables and built our own roof trusses on-sight using plywood gussets, glue, and staples for the joinery. The amount of yellow glue used was staggering AND a complete mess - glue was everywhere. But in the end the trusses were always second to none, better even than the steel=plate gussets used in truss plants. When it comes to wood, these pva glues shine.
 

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This is a pretty interesting thread with a lot of good info so I'm going to 'pin' it so it doesn't get lost. Thanks for the contributions.
 

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Stretch- Amazing! In 1979 I built a 25x50 log shop in the mountains of Colorado and made (and set) my own trusses made from rough lumber, plywood gussets, yellow glue mixed with warm water, and small, ringshank nails. The shop is still there, with damage. The house was washed away by a mud flow in 2008. I'll bet the outline of those trusses on the floor are still visible in glue drippings!
 

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Look on a woodworking site to learn about gluing wood
Specifically, leevalley dot com for good wood glue discussion

I more or less agree with StretchNM

Gorilla glue, whatever its properties is not as strong as a good hide glue
Gorilla is sold to suburban hardware store customers, not to serious woodworkers.

One problem with epoxy is, if done right, you can never get the wood apart again to change anything.
 

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I used many glues making furniture and like Gorilla glue but like mentioned, it needs strong clamping.
Guns, I use Accra Glass, stained to match. All of you have seen the wood glue fixes on broken stocks. I have repaired many broken stocks and you will never break them again and you will never find the break.
ACRAGLAS, one word
 

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First of all I can't recommend the proper adhesive for your job cause without a photo of your problem, an idea of the joinery fit, grain orientation etc etc it would be a long assed guess. But I've been in the woodworking businesses from yachts to furniture pretty much the past forty years and trust me there are glues for every job and every level of craftsmanship. If you're working with end grain one set of rules apply meaning optimal glues and techniques to use. If you're gluing up oily woods, or panels another set of rules and glues would apply.

I should say 90% of the time for gun stock work where you need reasonable open time ( working time to fit and clamp ) moderate only clamping pressure, forgiving temperature controls and an invisible glue line then your PVA ( poly vinyl acetate ) glues, the yellowish aliphatic ones will certainly do the job. Of course this all depends on clean good fitting faying surfaces since PVA's are not gap filling like epoxies. I would not use Gorilla Glue for an application where I wanted a clean invisible glue line. Gorilla is a urethane expanding adhesive that needs water damp surfaces to promote a degree of wet out with the wood structure. Wood glues work on a molecular level to be strong, as in as strong as the parent wood. This may be the reason your first attempt failed -- guessing. Anyway it's a serious structural glue but will not give you a furniture grade glue line and the reason you never see it in high quality assemblies.

Epoxy is a 100% solids adhesive that can be handled easily for long periods and tailored to meet not only viscosity demands like overhead or vertical where you don't want it running off by adding all kinds of additives. Acraglas is just Brownell's branded mix of epoxy. It's no better or chemically different than say WEST System, Koppers, Raka, you name it. They added nylon filler and perhaps something else to increase viscosity and perhaps recoil absorption. But real epoxy resin systems allow you to add things like micro-balloons for stiffness and fairing work, colloidal silica for more viscosity or thickness and still let resin wet out grain structure, I could go on for a page or two but you get the idea. You can make it do almost anything. I know WEST System epoxies have been used for years laminating wooden aircraft propellers, high performance masts etc. problem is you'd have to buy more than you need for your job. Epoxy has it all except perhaps not a true invisible glue line. Close but not real furniture grade. Epoxies are also problematic with high tannin woods like red and white oaks and therefore not preferred laminating these woods. However you can tint clear epoxy resin to about any color you want which can be interesting.

Hide glues are excellent old school adhesives but require equipment like a pot which I doubt you want to spend for. You also need your wood pieces heated enough not to shock and cool down the glue -- bad. Pheno resorcinol is perhaps the strongest but requires really expert joiner work, good clamping etc and in the end you have a purple glue line. Still the preferred glue for airplane construction and tall laminated wood spars.

If you could send us a photo it would help. Dowels may or may not be the way to go I can't say without seeing your joint. Trust me there are more than one way to solve your problem. Good luck
 

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ION EDIT: For the OP - don't get stuck just on Titebond II,.
Quite true. I tried various glues years ago, and Titebond II is what satisfied me the most. Don't like the original Titebond, and never tried Titebond III. I'm sure there are other glues that would be just as good, but I'll just stick with the Titebond II.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
It never occurred to me until I read these posts that I am indeed working with End Grains on both pieces of the stock.

The grain of the stock runs the length of the stock. The fore end piece has it's grain flowing in the same direction as the stock so it creates a flow with the grain of the stock.
joinery of the two pieces are at 90% and are very flat. I was intending to file the ends of the wood to remove the old Gorilla glue. I can't go too far or I will be eliminating a part of the carved forend that is meant to flow into the stock.
I would send pictures but am at work on board a ship and no where near home.
Both Stock and End piece are black walnut, just two different shades for a bit of contrast.
 

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Sorry I didn't 'see' your problem. I thought you had cut a big 'notch' in the forend where the checkering is and wanted to lay another piece in. It's called a "Dutchman" and is used by stockmakers when a big internal flaw shows up in a job.

End on end needs TWO dowels about an inch long, one each side of and below the barrel channel. Since it's (near) impossible to drill both sides straight, drill oversized (3/16) for two pieces of threaded stainless rod. Epoxy would be called for here because you want ALL the spaces filled with a solid material. Be sure to fit the rods in the hole and the wood pieces together to be sure of a dry fit before making it juicy. Filling a blind hole with epoxy is not as easy as it seems, either. You have to 'spin' it off a thin wire. FILL the holes before the rod goes in. That means some overflow when the parts come together.

Make a clamp from two pieces of long all-thread with a small wood or alumimum bar top and bottom. One bar goes through the magazine well the other over the fore-end tip with wing nuts to tighten. OR just run a rod through the front tang screw hole and use that as a winding post for surgical tubing that loops up over the fore end tip. It is NOT a clean and neat job to do.

To protect carving from epoxy, wrap tightly with a clinging film product like Saran Wrap. Wrap it tight so the plastic adheres to the carving. It works on checkering, too.
 
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Doesn't make sense. Joining the end grain one piece of walnut to the side grain of another? Can you find somebody on board the ship who understands wood and have him type a few words here? Even if you don't have the stock with you, just use whatever's on hand to explain to him. Then he can explain it to us.

If you have a rifle stock represented by the "=", then it would look like this: ==================

Now, if the stock you are trying to repair looks like this ======== ...... ======= and you're trying to glue that together, you don't need glue or dowels or anything. You need a new riflestock. There is no need to be gluing end grain to end grain on any piece of wood within 30 feet of a firearm.
 

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So you are fitting up a forearm nose piece and it's all end grain. You have a couple of glue up problems going on that need to be addressed. First think of end grain like a bundle of soda straws that will suck up most glues and leave the surface glue starved. Normally you seal this with several coats called a glue size until the surface remains filled and tacky. If the end grain doesn't suck up the glue it often means that these straw-like cells are bent or damaged usually from dull cutting tools, burning with high speed abrasives like a belt or disc sander or contaminated with another product. If you can't get decent glue wet out or absorption on end grain then you will never achieve a decent molecular bond which is how most glues work. The fact that you already have Gorilla glue residue in the end grain, which is a poor secondary bond foundation for epoxy, and don't want to cut back anymore means you may want to follow Jack's suggestion.

Jack is suggesting a very sucessful method of securing end to end grain pieces. You install mechanical dowels or pins which will anchor the two pieces if done correctly. Cutting a mortise and tenon would be even better but it's too late for that now. Normally doweling a highly figured or visible piece like this should be done using an oversized block that once secured is shaped. This makes fitting up and alignment less tedious. You can use hardwood dowels of the furniture type that are fluted or scored to hold and grip glue better or metal.

One of many techniques that work well and are easy to do is the use of stainless sheet metal self tap screws where one end is threaded into the wood then the head of the screw is cut off resulting in a threaded dowel. The female receiver piece of wood is then drilled oversize or larger than the dia of the screw shank to depth. I then would take a larger screw and run it into these holes to cut ridges in the walls. Dry fit to insure all is correct then you need to fill the holes. These holes are filled with thickened epoxy resin thick enough, like frosting, to not run out of the holes until you have put it together. The ridges will further secure these epoxy anchors and the screw threads act like a helix anchor. Wet out your pieces and glue it up insuring you have enough clamp pressure to squeeze out excess. Clamp it evenly and in increments to force excess epoxy out. Many people don't realize that over-clamped joints with excess glue equal hydraulic pressure and wood splits.

Epoxy fillers can be had at Brownells, almost all marine supply, many lumber yards etc.. Drilling and pouring anchors of this type have been successfully used on many types of high stress load fittings. I've done engine mount foundations with these poured anchors into wood stringers and fifteen years later they still hold.
 

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Many people don't realize that over-clamped joints with excess glue equal hydraulic pressure and wood splits.
I've seen FOUR Remington M700s with stocks split by epoxy bedding compound in the recoil mortise then clamped or tightened down with tang screws too fast. One guy did it in a vise.
(That's why I prefer tiny amounts of very stiff putty selectively placed instead of 'slobber and dodge' the excess method.)

By the same token, a split stock can be repaired quite well by clamping the split closed, then drilling a #30 hole down the split. Then (try to) fill the hole with thin epoxy with the clamp relaxed. Now, slowly force an 1/8 dowel into the hole. Hydraulic pressure will force the epoxy to all parts of the crack. Clamp it closed again and have an invisible repair of extreme strength.
(It's good to find out why it split and repair that, too.) ;)
 
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TO THE OP: If you cant provide pictures or someone else aboard who can explain your project, can you tell us what make and model of rifle this stock is for?

If it truly is a forearm nosepiece or end cap, then yes you'll need dowels. But what you want there are steel pins and epoxy. You also need a woodworker or a gunsmith who works on stocks.
 

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I've seen FOUR Remington M700s with stocks split by epoxy bedding compound in the recoil mortise then clamped or tightened down with tang screws too fast. One guy did it in a vise.
(That's why I prefer tiny amounts of very stiff putty selectively placed instead of 'slobber and dodge' the excess method.)

By the same token, a split stock can be repaired quite well by clamping the split closed, then drilling a #30 hole down the split. Then (try to) fill the hole with thin epoxy with the clamp relaxed. Now, slowly force an 1/8 dowel into the hole. Hydraulic pressure will force the epoxy to all parts of the crack. Clamp it closed again and have an invisible repair of extreme strength.
(It's good to find out why it split and repair that, too.) ;)
That's good I like that. Always surprises me how gunsmiths come up with so many work-arounds and clever fixes. Not like a production shop where you study it, throw it out and do it again hopefully before there are a hundred mistakes stacked up if front of you. A light viscosity epoxy resin and some hydraulic pressure will go to work where the eye will never see.
 

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Stretch-- It's a simple fore-end tip but he's carved the tip and now is trying to put it to the fore-end. It's end grain to end grain as are they all. I can see why the gorilla glue didn't work, now!

That joint, historically is a tenon joint. Fajen and Bishop and Remington uses a plastic cap over a small tenon. I have a Hoffman with a Dubiel stock on it that uses the classic buffalo horn tip over a tenon with hide glue just as Hollands and others. Dual SS screw dowels in epoxy works fine, but it has to be clamped to prevent hydraulic crawling.

Stick-tanged knives without pommel screws have their handles attached the same way: The tang has a series of notches ground in all corners to 'bite' the epoxy joint. The hard part is making an oblong hole four inches deep in a piece of curved stag horn and then filling the hole with good epoxy. OSHA would have a stroke.
 

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Stretch-- It's a simple fore-end tip but he's carved the tip and now is trying to put it to the fore-end. It's end grain to end grain as are they all. I can see why the gorilla glue didn't work, now!

That joint, historically is a tenon joint. Fajen and Bishop and Remington uses a plastic cap over a small tenon. I have a Hoffman with a Dubiel stock on it that uses the classic buffalo horn tip over a tenon with hide glue just as Hollands and others. Dual SS screw dowels in epoxy works fine, but it has to be clamped to prevent hydraulic crawling.

Stick-tanged knives without pommel screws have their handles attached the same way: The tang has a series of notches ground in all corners to 'bite' the epoxy joint. The hard part is making an oblong hole four inches deep in a piece of curved stag horn and then filling the hole with good epoxy. OSHA would have a stroke.
Yep the trick will be clamping which is always a major consideration in gluing up odd shapes. You can spend more time making a clamp fixture that than the original piece sometimes. I have no idea what this nose piece looks like but if it's already sized then you will need to carefully control it while the glue sets up. Epoxy will give you a lot of open time where when it starts to stiffen up so you can move things a bit to align without damaging performance. You can't do this with PVA glues in fact even backing off clamp pressure in the beginning results in less strength. Either way you want a tight joint with no visible glue line. An option I've used is to tint the resin black ( any color ) and let the joint show a bit which will look like a black thin washer or spacer when done. This could answer if you're having clamping problems.
 
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