[41fan]

After reading yet another article on how the 44mag is not enough for bear, I wonder WHY? The day will come when I hunt the biggins in alaska and when I do, I will take a 41mag and it will be loaded with a 280WLNGC @ 1300fps. I consider this the MINIMUM for the brownies. So when you increase to the 44mag and a 300g @ 1375, or a 320 @ 1300, or even a 350 @ 1225, wouldn't this be good for bear? I mean the round has been used for how long with bullets that were too light and not up to the task to take em'. Now that we have the right ones and powder, elmer's round isn't good enough. WHY? That's what I want to know(this coming from someone who loathes the 44mag).    doug

 

[James Gates]

It's a disease called "Magnumitus" and contracted from reading, handling, or coming in contact with anything touched by the "pulp paper writers"! The only known cure is checking into the Beartooth Bullets clinic for detox! All jokes aside...When you hear this it, it's likely put out by someone with something to sell or a writer on the "take"! I've killed only one bear in my life, but I have seen and killed big game all over the world, except Afica. I've killed some big wild hogs with both the 41 and 44 magnum. These weren't runaway tame hogs! When I was young the favorite deer guns in the South were .25-35 and .30-30 Winchesters. Now you needed a cannon? Turkey were killed with the high brass 3 3/4-1 1/4-#4,5,and 6's...now you need a 3 1/2" 12 gauge Magnum?
Oh Well............!
When someone asks, "What is a crying shame?"
I answer, "A busload of writers going off the Sky Way bridge, with one empty seat!!!"
Elmer Keith, Pink Simms, Hacksaw, and the rest killed more big bears than most people ever seen...with .41 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Long Colts!If you have to swallow the BS these peolpe put out..at least take a grain of salt with it! Most comes from "Peddlers" Best Regards, James


(Edited by James Gates at 6:10 am on Mar. 10, 2001)

 

[Bill M]

Way to go James!!!!  When it comes to the question, "how much is enough", it seems many (though not all) gun writers only want to tell you about a new way to spend your money and not to set reasonable standards.  James' 250gr 44 load has no idea it is not powerful enough (happily, bullets can't read) and keeps on taking game no matter what is written.  Marshall really likes his 325gr WLN bullet with a good dose of H-110.  Though it to does not know what it can't do, it goes on quietly as a major league stopper of angry game.  

I really love powerful loads and it's fun to make the boomers boom.  When it comes to hunting or protection, give me something that works and is easy to shoot, so it is at it's best, when I am at my worst.    I don't own one but the 41 mag with a 280gr @ 1300 fps is serious medicine.  

Just had to jump in a guy who believed those magazine lies for a long time.  

God bless.................  Bill M

 

[Marshall Stanton]

Hmmmmmm.... .44 Magnum..... peashooter!........ I'd hate to get shot with a "real" gun!

Amen to Mr. Gates and Bill M.!!!  Seems that gun rag periodicals have become high-tech, high pressure sales pitches.... being based on armchair hype and driven by the big advertiser's dollars!!!  Who ever said money doesn't talk?  Would it really pay to tell millions of readers to drag out grandfather's .357, blow the dust off, lube and clean it and go hunting?   Or Great Uncle Bob's .35 Remington and take it after blackbear?   Dollars forbid!!!!

Seems there's a whole generation that haven't the privilege of remembering when Colonel Wesson was hunting (and successfully killing) just about anything that walked on North America....... with a (then new) .357 Magunum.... then  "the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world!".... it's not been that many years ago, and a whole host of gunscribes of the day hailed the .357 as the kills all of handgun cartridges!   Some police departments even declared that it was "entirely too much gun for police work!"

So, when the .44 magnum came out, WOW!  The world's toughest critters were in a BAD way!  This new hand held artillery needed wheels!  The .357 was all an outdoorsman could ask for, and what, with such power of the .44 magnum, nothing on earth was safe!  Beware too the unmanageable recoil turned up by this new boomer with it's 250 grain bullet doing 1400 fps from a revolver!

Has the game we hunt gotten tougher?  No!  Have the shots gotten longer? No!  Have the ammo or loading components become less effective?  No!  

It's just that the writers of today are pushing for the bigger, the meaner, the faster and the more lucrative!   If we truly used what was effective, then all the major gun companies would go broke!  There are enough guns in circulation right now to arm every adult in America with a very efficient, effective game harvesting firearm!  Nope, we need to relegate those existing pieces of fine workmanship to collector status, and make sure that everyone understands that their functional value ebbed away several decades ago!  We all need new guns since our old ones won't do the job anymore!

I still have some wonderful backissues of Field & Stream, Outdoor Life, Fur Fish & Game, and American Rifleman... some dating to the late 40's.  These publications were excellent sources of information for the hunter and practical outdoorsman.   They gave actual hunting  tips and helps, insight into hunting techniques and instructions on how to improvise your own gear, and to make the most of what you already owned!  Articles of instruction for the novice, or young hunter.  A time when there was an interchange of information.... not a souped up sales pitch!

ouch.... sorry about the soap box!  You folks just really struck a raw chord with me... true information and truth being held hostage to the almighty dollar!

Thanks for your patience with my indulgence!

God Bless,

Marshall

 

[Contender]

When I bought my 444 Marlin rifle in 1981, I remember reading how "useless" it was because the bullet was no good in the factory rounds for anything larger than a cockroach.

Fast forward 20 years to Beartooth Bullets where the "useless" 444 is getting it's true respect. I'm glad I found this website! The information here on the cartridge, can't be bought at any price.

Thanks Marshall.

 

[James Gates]

AMEN!!!! Doctor Stanton at the Beartooth Bullets Clinic passing out Truth Pills...Lord, I love the site!! Best Regards, James

 

[MT Callahan]

You guys are making me cry, cut it out.

As far as I'm concerned there are three or four "gunwritters" left and they get far to few articles printed. I started my firearms interest early but no one in my family hunted. I learned all I could from books, magazines, and as I got older from the people I ran into that were willing to show me what I was doing wrong.

Today the magazines are full of ads and nonsense. I only buy three anymore; Handloader, Rifle, and Gunworld and even with these its reader beware sometimes. Books on shooting and hunting are a thing of the past, you need to find a copy of books by Keith and the other greats of the past and try to get past the dated material. The newer members deserve better than what they're given by mainstream publications.

Meanwhile, I'll be carefull using my mild loaded 44 magnum sixgun and lever action so I don't make any of the big game in the area made at me. When its time to shoot some 38 specials I'll be sure to do that indoors so as not to disturb the squirrels.

 

[James Gates]

And Now Ladies and Gentlemen....The Fat Lady Will Sing!........In a couple of conversations with Marshall, I stressed the need for something entirely new!....An Internet Magizine dedicated to informing shooters on the real world of the sport! Full of the old time "How To" articles, "What If" tests, and patterned on the old time great publications.
And above all...sworn not to advertise any product unless it "worked"! The exclusivity of the thing would bring "tired of BS" readers running. The frame work is in place right now with the team that's spread out all over the country! All it needs is fleshing out.It could well become the most respected publication going! Think about the impact! Think about the marketing potential! think about the in-place team! Remember......
" A Team is a Group of Individuals who Collectivly Agree to Accomplish a Common Goal!
Best Regards, James

 

[Big Bore]

Amen Brothers.  Rush's title as the Truthmeister is being challanged!  Not that I want to show my age, but do you guys remember when the .44 Magnum first came out?  The gun rags were toting it as being the most powerful handgun one could handle.  It's recoil broke wrists, the gun twisted violently in the hand from the bullet taking the rifling, front sights were being imbedded in "lesser" men's foreheads, only REAL men with real hairy chests could handle this hellacious beast.  Can you imagine what it was like for a 13 year old kid to to plunk down BIG money for his first .44 Magnum, which was going to make him a REAL man, shoot it and find out none of that crap was true?  Ans till no hair on his chest!  Welcome to the world of reality and magazines best suited for bird-cage liner.  And now, the All Knowing and Almighty Gun Writers say the .44 magnum is a pea shooter, barely adequate for deer?  And to add contradiction, almost line for line the same things said of the .44 in the beginning are being said about the super calibers of today, like the .475 and .500 Linebaughs.  Just like anything else, proper bullet, and bullet placement will get the job done.

 

[Contender]

That reminds me about an article I read about 10 or so years back in either G&A or Shooting Times about the tongue and cheek story of a young shooter buying his first 44 Magnum. It was great!


I think it was called, "Make Mine a 44!" Fun article if you can find it.

 

[Jack Monteith]

Hi, Guys:
  A few thoughts.  Remember when P.O. Ackley, Elmer Keith and Robert Hutton wrote for Guns & Ammo? Now Bob Forker's articles are dumbed down and Col. Cooper's column is censored.  Precision Shooting Magazine is excellent, but they lost their low international postage rate and a subscription costs almost &#36100 up here now.

  One gun writer recommended a .300 Win Mag with 200 grainers for 400 pound Saskatchewan whitetails. Give me a break! The biggest buck I've seen went 209 lbs., field dressed. My late neighbour, Doug Garden, said it was a lot heavier than his Boone & Crockett buck (175+).

  When I was a pup, the best hunter around here used a .303 Savage, 190 grains at 1900 fps. Now you need a .300 RUM?

  The local gunsmiths did a land office business with 7mm STWs a few years back. Then slightly used STWs started showing up in the classified and at the gunshows. Maybe the old .270 was enough gun after all. Two teenaged neighbours of mine, brother & sister, always tag out with a lefthand Savage in .270. Their 7mm Remington toting friends don't know how they do it. Mind you, another young neighbour drilled a massive 5 pointer through the ticker at 200 yards, on the dead run, last fall. Now all the guys know a 7mm Rem is too much gun for a medium sized 14 year old girl! Guess I taught my students well.

  I do advocate enough gun. The .243 started showing up in this country when I was about 20. Somebodies uninvited brother-in-law would show up with one and we'd have a tracking job.  A high school friend used a .25-20 and he may have well been throwing rocks!

  Recoil is subjective. I had the handgun class over to the range Wednesday night and we had a ball. Six students, one a club member who was just out of the hospital and didn't shoot. (Remember, this is Canada and you need the Fed's Safety Course for a Possession and Acquisition License even if you've been coaching the Olympic team for 30 years.) 3 men, all bigger than I am, (ave. 6'5" & 240), Rosebud, who's 18 and very slender, and George, who's small for a 12 year old and very shy. I start them with the .22, a High Standard. If they want to, I move them up to the Highway Patrolman, with factory wadcutters and light handloads. If they're still game, it's up to the 1911A1 with bullseye loads. Except for Rosebud, who started with the .45. She's been trying to buy it off me for a year now. Needless to say, that put the guys in an awkward position. Anyhow, I had 2 .45 shells left when we packed up. Little George, who had only shot a pellet gun before, popped them off.

A tip: Students at this level aren't chewing out the X-ring. Save time changing targets by having one shoot wadcutters and one shoot SWCs or round noses on the same target. It's easy to see who did what. With a 35 mile drive to the range and only 3 lanes, and only one beginner shooting at a time, time is of the essence.

Bye
Jack

 

[RugerNo3]

I got into a discussion with a 44Mag fanatic. I have nothing against the round, but pointed out that a properly loaded 45Colt would give a 44mag a run for its money. He thought not. It is too anemic. Just an old BP round that out lived its day. My retort was that if old Elmer Keith, whom he respected, had a Ruger SBH, there would probably be no 44 Mag. He ended the discussion. :O

 

[pourboy]

Gunwriters gotta earn a living too!! What kind of world would it be if everyone got straight information everytime they asked for it? Why, why, it would be anarchy! Information without the proper spin on it?? Unthinkable! It is now fashionable to downgrade the magnum revolver cartridges to allow for development of new cartridges as we go along. SAAMI helps perpetuate these myths by lowering the maximum allowable pressure levels of the old cartridges. The .357 was first, the .44 is the latest. There is a side benefit to this madness. It allows manufacturers of lesser weapons to chamber for the magnums. I firmly believe the emasculation of the 44 magnum was done for the sake of Smith & Wesson, who has had a problem with the durability of the 29 series revolver. They have done upgrades, sure. But cling stubbornly to the old, original "N"" frame for the magnums. The lower pressure limits are saving companies like S&W millions. The .357 is a mere shadow of it's former self. Compare the old data to the new. Now, the .44s obsolete. Rendered impotent by the 45 Colt??? Give me a break!!!-------------------------------------> Bob

 

[Eric]

Ok this is probably a stupid question but I learned a long time ago if I've got one other people probably have the same one.

We see lots of 5 shot .45 lc single actions built on Blackhawks. I have never seen a 5 shot .44 mag. - Why?

Is it SAAMI specs? Is there no room left in the case to add more powder to create higher pressures? Would these pressures just not gain us anything in velocity? Are .45's just a better platform to start from?

Eric

 

[MT Callahan]

Eric,

I'll throw out a dangerous statement. All this being equal(read that as chamber pressure) the 45 Colt will beat the tar out of the 44 magnum. The 44 as we know it runs at a maximun chamber pressure right out of the ammo factory. For safties sake you really can't push it any further. Using long cylindered guns like the Ruger Redhawk you can utilize bullets like the long cylinder meduim nose and the long medium nose dual crimp groove to keep as much bullet out of the case as possible and put more powder in its place. Pressures aren't increased much if at all but your able to push those bullets a bit faster.

Moving to a five shot gun to increase the overall strength of the cylinder won't help the 44 brass hold together. Theres only so much pressure a case can take. Making a 5 shot 45 simply allows you to increase the relativly low chamber pressures of the 45 Colt to the same level and higher than the 44 magnum. The extra metal surrounding the cartridge case is the key. Now you can flex the muscle of the larger diameter and lauch 325 grain bullets at around 1450 fps, around 200 fps faster than whats safe in a six shot Ruger Blackhawk. Heavier bullets are also on the menu if you really like pain.

Now back to the real world. What game that you or I will be hunting require more power than a 45 caliber 325 grain bullet at 1250 fps? The 5 shot 45's greatest advocate, Ross Seyfried, will tell everyone who asks that a 6 six 45 Colt is the best hunting revolver. It will take 90% of the worlds game. If your pocket is deep enough and you have the desire, the 5 shot is there. one more note on this long winded response. For my "big bore" handgun, I chose the 44 magnum. I don't load it to maximnum pressure and dont use bullets heavier than 280 grains, no jacketed 300 grainers need apply. Its a great levergun round and I just plain like it. From a pure scientific reason the 45 is better choice, but I think we need to pick what we like. This is supposed to be fun.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject. You may want to check out John Linebaughs web sit. He has some good articles on the 45 there. You can access it from sixgunner.com.

 

[Bill Lester]

If I may add my &#36.02, the entire free world is run by the marketers. Not just in firearms, mind you. Everything. We are bombarded with the latest/greatest/biggest/fastest/new and improved. Regardless if it's a fast food sandwich, pop music sensation, SUV, and yes, gun or cartridge, the capitalist world runs on selling something new.

How long do you think Remington, just as an example, could survive as a company if it only sold a few .270's and .30-06's to the handful of new hunters that take up the sport each year? Not very long I'd wager. So to preserve their company, the jobs of their employees, and firearms in general, we get all manner of guns and cartridges that don't do anything better than ones of the past. But they're new . The marketers then convince us we must have it, no matter that the Savage 99 .250 or S&W Model 29 your Grandad slayed 50 deer with is sitting in the gun cabinet waiting to go.

I can't really blame the gun and ammo companies for this. It's economic survival. They're in business to make money, as we all are. But as wise consumers we must separate the wheat from the chaff, and this message board is a superb way to do it.

Long live the .357, the .30-06, and 16 gauge!

 

[41fan]

Beat the tar out of a 44mag, beat yes, the tar out of it no. I read linebaugh's articles and a 45colt will push an equal weight bullet the same speed with less chamber pressure. The tensile strength of brass is 80,000 psi. Just like people who say 45colt brass is weak, its just not true. The old baloon head type yes, the current produced brass, no. Anyway, wasn't this about the gunzines belitteling the 44mag? I wasn't trying to compare the 44mag to the 45colt, just saying that now the 44 is a popgun. At least they don't make fun of my beloved 41mag. it doesn't exist to them. Oh well, have fun. doug

 

[41fan]

Beat the tar out of a 44mag, beat yes, the tar out of it no. I read linebaugh's articles and a 45colt will push an equal weight bullet the same speed with less chamber pressure. The tensile strength of brass is 80,000 psi. Just like people who say 45colt brass is weak, its just not true. The old baloon head type yes, the current produced brass, no. Anyway, wasn't this about the gunzines belitteling the 44mag? I wasn't trying to compare the 44mag to the 45colt, just saying that now the 44 is a popgun. At least they don't make fun of my beloved 41mag. it doesn't exist to them. Oh well, have fun. doug

 

[James Gates]

Oh well...............! We started off trying to decide if the .44 Mag was a peewee and drifted of on the latest whizbang 45. I have always liked the .45 Long Colt! I think in it's original form, with modern brass, it will do anything needed! Someday someone is going to come up with a super dupper something and then everyone will be saying the present Whizbang .45's are peewee's. Wait and see! The question still floats..How much can you control and hit with! The rest is BS! Here's one for you...there were 6 deer and 1 hog killed this year with the BTB .44 LFN CG at 1300'/", all dead-dead! Now..has anyone done better with a whizbang? Or how many did you put down this year with anything. Let's forget for awhile all the bsllistic mumbo-gumbo, etc and talk about meat-down and what was used. I like paper punching and running the numbers as much as anyone! But I hunt red meat and you can bet you a** the .44 Mag with a BTB .44 250 LFN GC @ 1300'/" will fill a frezzer. If a whizbang can do it better, then by all means use one, but don't tell me what we are shooting is puny! Happiness in a big gut pile!
Best regards, James

 

[Doug]

The reasons above are all good observations, but I think part of the problem is peoples expectations.  Holly weird shows us that when people are shot in the stomach with a tiny handgun, they immediately crumple and die.  On rare occasions, they manage to gasp out a few last words, but most of the time, death is instant.

Now, in the real world, my neighbor shot a deer with a .308 winchester.  Blew a 1 inch hole dead center in the heart.  The buck staggered around, walked about 20 yards, then layed down.  It was still holding its head up, but before a second shot could be put into it, its head lay down and it died.  This is the reality of heart and lung shots, it usually takes a while for the animal to bleed out.

Now, lots of people have gone out and shot deer or bear with a 44 mag, sometimes poor placement, sometimes perhaps even missing the animal.  When the animal runs away, rather than dropping in its tracks, they have to conclude they didn't have enough gun.  My own belief is it depends 90% on placement, 10% on cartridge.

I contend, their expectations of what is supposed to happen when an animal if fatally shot are in error, in part because of the boob tube training the masses about what to expect when someone (or some animal) is shot.

I shot my deer in 2000 with a 300 grain .454 casull beartooth bullet through the lungs.  It ran about 75 yards before it collapsed and died.  In 98, I shot a deer through the lungs with a .357, it ran 96 yards before it collapsed and died.  The difference could very well be explained by how many big blood vessels were cut, how much adrenaline kicked in, etc.  Again, 90% placement, 10% cartridge.  Or maybe its 45% placement, 5% cartridge and 50% how much the animal feels like running.