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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I finally got it back...
 

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Win M1895

Now that is a thing of beauty.I have 3 Win M1895s in 30/40 Krag,303 British and 405 Winchester.All of mine are the old Winchesters and all have 28in pipes and side mounted scopes.I will post some pictures.None are as cute as your little brush buster.But they do make fine long range killers.
 

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Dave-

Looks great! I'm sure she'll shoot as good as she looks. Give us a report on range performance after you get done with your move.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #4
Enforcer,
A coastal brown bear rifle is never "cute"! ;)

This rifle was originally a Miroku made 270 Winchester. Last year I sent it to Z-Hat for a conversion to 411 Hawk. We had to rebarrel with a Douglas Premium XX, cut to 22". The quarter rib rear sight blank is from Dakota with a fixed blade cut for zero using the 400 grain Barnes X at 100 yards. The 2 folding leaf sights are cut for the 350 grain Barnes X zero out to 200 yards. Should give point blank range to around 250. I have purchased a Marbles tang sight for the rifle (shown) for use at the range with lighter bullets and loads.

This rifle was specially built for a single purpose, hunting deer, moose and bear in coastal Alaska where outsized coastal brown bears roam. It was intentionally kept short and fast handling for quick use in the thick alder, willow, and devils club jungles of Cape Suckling, Icy Bay, Montague and Hinchinbrook Islands. I still wanted to able to use minimal elevation out to about 250 yards for the moose, as sometimes you can catch them out in the open muskeg patches from time to time. The 1895's box magazine allows the use of spitzer shaped Barnes X for the purposes I was looking for.

A banded front sight and barrel band sling swivel was also added. As well as a 1" Pachmyr Decelerator recoil pad.
 

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The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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That is, indeed, a nice looking rifle, Aleyska -

I'm sure it will do the job it was intended for. Not sure what the .411 Hawk is, though. The blued steel and walnut wood look great! I've heard so much about everyone hunting Alaska needing stainless due to weather - it's nice to know there's some who feel the blued steel/wood combination still works up ther.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Alyeska,
S our Canadian friends might say, "beauty, eh?"

That looks great! Too bad it's five months late - I hope it shoots well. Are your ribs healed up well enough to shoot it, yet?

IDShooter
 

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411 Hawk

Alyeska338,i meant that in a manly way.It is a very nice looking rifle.But in the picture it looked stubby,hence the cute phrase.I thought about such a conversion.Though one should need nothing above my 405Win.After all Teddy killed everything in Africa with his,and I juiced my up from that.Mine has a 28in barrel and will send a 300gr HornadySP at smoking velocities,with 4000fpe of energy.

But i felt i did and went with a Savage M99 in 416-284 McPherson with a 26in custom barrel at 60,000psi will send a 350gr Barnes Solid at 2400fps-4475fpe.

I am somewhat familar with the 411 Hawk,and believe it is based on the 30/06 case.Do you yet know what for ballistics you will be getting out of the 22in barrel and where does it fit in with other big bore custom or not?I know it fits nicely in your gun cabinet,thats for sure!
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #8
kdub,
I don't own any stainless/synthetic rifles anymore. Yes, they do make more sense up here, but blued steel and walnut are just fine provided you give them proper attention. I use a paste wax for the metal (when hunting in wet climates) and make sure all the wood is sealed. I've never had any problems. They do need attention every evening in camp, especially if hunting along the coast.

ID,
Yep, I'm all better now, ribs are in fine shape. I'll be working up loads during the next week or so...

Enforcer,
Teddy didn't use his 405 for everything in Africa. He did kill a lion with it, but for most of the big stuff he carried a H&H double rifle, I can't think of the chambering off the top of my head, but think it was something like a 470 Nitro.

As for ballistics, well, its all how you look at it. Yes, I do know there are laws of physics, but we are never talking about constants. As a hunter, velocity does a couple of things for us. One is to push the bullet along at such a velocity to make it easier to hit what we are shooting at, out to some distance. The faster the bullet goes (all else being equal), the more ground the bullet covers over a specified amount of time (hence less "drop" over the same distance). I wanted a rifle capable of point blank capabilities out to about 250 yards (my self imposed limit for moose with open sights along with other considerations). Second velocity gets the (expanding) bullet into the operating parameters where it will expand and do the work it is designed for. Push it too fast, it comes apart, too slow and it doesn't expand. My distance for those velocities is zero to about 250 yards, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. The 400 and 350 grain Barnes X will be pushed into those velocities at those distances, so there shouldn't be a problem. Last, but not least we want our velocity to be quick enough to aid the penetration of the bullet into the areas where it will do the most damage from whatever angle. With the Barnes X design, and what I've witnessed with them being used on moose, bear and the like, we shouldn't have a problem there, either.

The thing velocity doesn't do is square itself. I have never seen an animal of the size of a moose or caribou ever "shocked" down. I've seen them get poleaxed by a CNS shot, but I've never seen one get shocked to death. For that reason, the ft-lbs of energy formula, et al, are really just relative. Those numbers don't mean anything in the field. Maybe they do to a pure shooter, I don't know. Here's the deal, if you put a bullet of sufficient size and construction, fast enough for you to place the bullet properly and get the bullet into vital organs, the animal is going to get a serious case of dead.

Does it mean anything if the 411 Hawk pushes a 350 grain bullet to 2450 fps or 2350 fps? Not a thing. For all practical purposes, at the ranges specified for this rifle, its the same speed. I haven't chroographed this rifle yet, but I do know that Ed Stevenson has been pushing his 350 grain Hawk bullets along at about 2400 fps. He's using a 24" barrel. I don't know what it'll do at 22", but I bet you this, it will stop a bear at shoestring distances and put a moose down on the far side of a muskeg patch with equal ease.;)
 

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405Win

Big Medicine"The 405 Winchester" by Chuck Hawks.Chuck states that T.R. used the 405Win to take lion,cape buffalo,elephant and rhino.He called the 405win "Big Medicine" and said the 405Win is perfect for large and dangerous predators like lion,tiger and grizzly bear.

Frank Barnes states the 405Win has been used successfully to take all of Africa's dangerous game.Of course everywhere you look you see Teddy standing over a downed rhino with a Win M1895 in 405Win.

Even the 22 Savage Hi-Power did some serious African Big Game killing.History of Savage states many renowned hunters scurried to be the first to topple the largest and most dangerous beasts of our planet with the deadly 70gr projectile.While many did just that,some undoudtly died while attempting to do so.

But then again this about the 411 Hawk.So don't let me side track you.Sorry
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #10
If you get the chance, read African Game Trails. Not very PC in this day and age, but a very interesting read. Teddy had a hard time with his lion he took with the 405. It wasn't really the 405's fault, Teddy just wasn't that great of a shot. He didn't have a very good shot to kill ratio, and the book has ridiculed for the number of animals he and Kermit killed, but it is a great read about Africa.

Hey, we are having a hunting stories contest in the Hunting Stories forum here at Beartooth, the winner will receive Peter Capstick's "Death in the Long Grass", a great collection of dangerous game hunting stories in Africa. Doesn't look like anyone has posted a story yet over there. Get in on the fun, you might win the book!

When I decided to have the 411 built. I had a purpose I needed to serve. I didn't have a rifle at the time that fit real well. I could have went a couple of different ways, one a short barreled bolt gun, or maybe a pump or an auto. For various reasons, I decided a lever would be ideal. I wanted it powerful enough for brown bears at shoestring distance up to moose at around 200-250 yards. To me, that meant a premium quality bullet of high section density, yet spitzer shaped for trajectory reasons. It also need to be big enough and heavy enough to break large bones of the big bears and moose. Winchester hadn't released the 405 at that time, or I might have just ordered one. But I didn't really know if I could use a 400 grain spitzer shaped pill in the 405 and have enough powder space left. I really liked the 1895 action and like the way it felt much better than the Marlin or 94 or 92 Winchesters. I figure that makes me odd, but I do. So now I had the rifle I wanted and idea of what I wanted it to do, but still didn't have a cartridge in mind. I wanted a 40 cal (because that dang CharlieZ put that bug in my head!), wanted something that would work on the 1895 Winchester, operate at less than 60,000 psi, and the 411 Hawk fit that bill.

I don't think I've ever bought a rifle by picking the cartridge first. To me, the rifle is much more important. I could have the most accurate 416 whizbanger ever built, but if it didn't fit me or fit my use for it, it would be worthless to me. I usually have a purpose that needs filling, then I pick a rifle that will fill that purpose. Then find a chambering that fits the rifle and the purpose. To me the rifle is much more of a factor of how successfully I use it than the cartridge it shoots.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Dave,

The .411 is a thing of beauty. It's an '06 case with the shoulder moved forward, right?

African Game Trails - what a book. Get a reprint, they're available, and plenty cheap. Much more interesting than reading about ex-presidents playing golf, which seems like about all they do these days. Probably says a lot about the character of our past and current leaders, but I digress.

Page 28:

TR's battery, listed in order:

'army Springfield, 30-caliber' (a 1903 Springfield, one would assume he used FMJ military ammo, as little else would have been available).
Win .405 model 1895
.500-450 double by Holland.
Fox 12 ga. side-by-side.

Kermit had an 1895, but chambered for the .30-06, and Rigby double-barrel, caliber not listed, presumably the same. Implied on this page is that Kermit also had a .405 Win / model 1895.

The rest of the information on who shot what with which rifle is scattered over 600 pages. A fascinating read.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Thanks, Mike. I knew the big Holland was chambered for something British, I just couldn't recall what it was. I loaned my copy of African Game Trails out to my friend who is heading to Africa with me.

Basically, the 411 Hawk is based on '06 brass, easiest formed from cylinder brass. The case is blown out to 400 Whelen specs and the shoulder moved forward. I just received 100 rounds of properly headstamped cylinder brass from Z-Hat, along with a full length sizing die set. The real problem I can see with the rifle is finding affordable heavy weight bullets. Hornady is making the 300 grain and Barnes is continuing with the 300 and 325 grain X bullets, but they have discontinued 350 and 400 grain X's. I've picked up all that I could scrounge, but pickings have been slim. Woodleigh is continuing with their 400 grain line and have plans for introducing a 450 grain (designed for the 400 H&H), but those are some expensive bullets. North Fork has plans for a 360 grain offering, but Mike Brady at North Fork said they had quit development plans for the 400 grain bullets. Pressures were pushing 60,000 psi for their target velocity out of the Hawk and they just couldn't recommend it.

Hawk is still making several bullet weights though and will make just about anything you want.

The rifle is well balanced, center of balance is just forward of the front edge of the magazine box, falls evenly between the hands. The rifle seems quite a bit lighter than it was in the 270 version. It carries easily and comes to the shoulder smooth as silk. The stock may be ill designed for recoil, but perfect for using those express V's, well, at least it is for me. That was major source of concern - having to squirm or bounce my head around to find the sights. Turns out, it was a lot of worry for nothing.
 

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Beartooth Regular
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Discussion Starter #13
Well, just as I sat typing the above post, a plump rolly polly black bear, 200-250 lbs, comes strolling through my front yard, just like he owns the place. Gotta love living here. Least there's no snakes (we do have iceworms though).
 

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I know I've said it before, But man that rifle is beautiful! I gotta have one some day rebarrelled to .35 Whelen.

Oh well, too many other irons in the fire right now.:rolleyes:
 

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"Bad Joke Friday" Dan (moderator emeritus)
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Alyeska338,

Can't tell you how many times I've come back to look at the picture, each time I'm more impressed. It simply looks like a rifle I'd expect to see with someone that knows what he's doing.

Only question.....I would assume you don't expect any eye relief problems (as in 'tang hitting eye') with the tang considering the recoil involved?

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks, DOK. The tang sight will probably only get used at the range with light bullets and loads. It does replace the rear tang screw on the Winchester and is very close to the shooter's eye. Should be fine for light loads and long range.
 

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The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Follow-up - TR killed his first 3 elephants with the .500/.450 double (pages 298, 312, and 399-404, African Game Trails).

I would be really surprised if anyone considered the .405 to be quite the elephant thumper.
 

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Well Well Well! Nice rifle! We are going to have to meet at the range. You can show me how to take a picture and post it on the forum. What are you doing for the next three days? I am off. I was checking the balistics of the famous .470 Nitro. It isn't much better then some of the new stuff. .458 Win etc. I will go back to Federal and check it again. I think we are well gunned with .411 and .405s.
 

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405win

MikeG,of course you are right.I'm sure no one believes the 405Win is an elephant thumper.But believe it has thumped some.Chuck Hawk "405 Winchester Big Medicine" lists elephant as being killed by the 405Win in the hands of T.R.I don't know,just repeating what he wrote.Look up 405Win on internet and its right there first page.As far as Frank Barnes he says page 130 2nd paragraph that the 405win was successfully used on ALL African species.COTW 9TH Edition Expanded and Revised.I'm just quoting what i read.It may or may not be true.But check out this article on the 22 Hi-Power.

Also Murray wrote in The History Of The Savage.That the M99 in 22 Hi-Power was used successfully to topple the largest and most deadly beasts our planet has to offer.Now surely no one believes the 22 Hi-Power to be a tiger,lion,hippo,rhino killer.But it has.Shot placement must be really important with these underpowered rounds,and of course a little luck.

I don't know alot about T.R..But i feel certain anything hit by my Win M1895 in 405win 300gr HornadySP going 2450fps-4000fpe out of a 28in pipe,will go down,and stay down.

I will get the book you spoke of .Should be great reading,and I will better beable to quote T.R.'s exploits.

Just to add to earlier post.Chuch Hawk also wrote that T.R. took 3 Win M1895s in 405Win with him to Africa,not just one as I had thought.
Enforcer
 
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