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Discussion Starter #1
The ground is rather wet here so bullet strikes of small caliber are hard to distingush at distance. Shooting a 357 Mag at a water jug at 130 yards gave little to no indication of were the bullet hit, yet the 230 grain from the 45 ACP was easy to determine.
The big bores rule, there is no dought of this to those that shoot both
 

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I agree with that about half way. Since I own three 357s and three 44s.
 

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A 30 caliber AP bullet hitting an iron plate at a thickness of 3/8-inch from a distance of 50 yards will hardly move tha plate. However a 45 caliber at the same distance will make it dance as though hit by a Mac truck.
The differance though is that although the 45 seemed to leave the impression it hit hard and thus would be the better choice it only chipped the paint and was pretty much a fail.
The 30 caliber however went clean through and would in this case was the better round.
Don't be fooled by big splash vodoo. But your observation was accurate.
I just don't agree with the conclusion in this case.
 

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Think it might be more simple than that. To make that puff of dirt, the bullet pretty much has to contact it (what happens below ground isn't visible)...and bigger diameter bullets contact more dirt.
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Way back when the Detonics compact .45's were new, bought one of the first ones. Shot well, carried it for years. Eventally was rifle plinking at targets in a gravel pit out at 150-175 yards and broke out that stub-barrel concealment Detonics. Might have been lobbing those 230gr. FMJ's at 700-710fps, and to walk it onto targets (and it was a BIG target for those of you who remember the tiny sight radius of those pistols), felt like I was forward observer for indirect 155 fire.

Even out at 175yards, with the bullets seeming to arch straight down into the sand, could see the dirt splashes bare-eyed.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Speed penetrates steel no need for a AP bullet on 3/8" A-106 plate. A lead core hunting bullet from an 06 will penetrate it also. But even an AP bullet will not penetrate 3/8" AR-500 plate at 50 yards.

What's your point?
 

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You made a conclusion based on your abservation that with a bigger splash a bigger bore rulesfor killing. I disagree with the conclusion as it relates to the observation. If you hit a puddle of water with a sledge hammer you will create a huge splash. However if you hit it with a knife, no splash.
One must conclude from your post you have concluded a big splash making caliber is best for killing. I simply do not agree with that as it is flawed science. In the same scenerio the knife in this case would be a more productive killing. agent giving all the proper variables.
Now to conclude that a bigger bore makes a bigger splash I am sure that "most" of the time that can be true. But not always Given velocity and bullet design veriables.
Don't get me wrong though. I like a big splash to. It make for a cool show.
 

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This is a rather odd resumption of the age-old argument between slow, heavy bullets, with greater frontal area, and fast, lighter bullets, with better penetration characteristics. To emphatically conclude this argument, I ask that you contemplate the following question:

Would you rather get hit with a 12-gauge shotgun slug at 1400fps, or a 55gr .223 Remington bullet, at 3250fps? At any range for which either is appropriate, and presuming a center-of-mass hit, I think the answer is patently obvious. The old saying is that speed kills, but when something really big is going fast enough, that's going to kill much better than something tiny, going really fast!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You made a conclusion based on your abservation that with a bigger splash a bigger bore rulesfor killing. I disagree with the conclusion as it relates to the observation. If you hit a puddle of water with a sledge hammer you will create a huge splash. However if you hit it with a knife, no splash.
One must conclude from your post you have concluded a big splash making caliber is best for killing. I simply do not agree with that as it is flawed science. In the same scenerio the knife in this case would be a more productive killing. agent giving all the proper variables.
Now to conclude that a bigger bore makes a bigger splash I am sure that "most" of the time that can be true. But not always Given velocity and bullet design veriables.
Don't get me wrong though. I like a big splash to. It make for a cool show.

You have made the incorrect assumption. I have made no assumption on killing power at all. I made an obesrevation and have been making observations all of my shooting life. Big bullets from handguns give more vissual indidcation of a hit. Even on animals in my experience, that is what I have observed, never mentioned killing better worse or the same nor have I assumed such
 

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A 30 caliber AP bullet hitting an iron plate at a thickness of 3/8-inch from a distance of 50 yards will hardly move tha plate. However a 45 caliber at the same distance will make it dance as though hit by a Mac truck.
The differance though is that although the 45 seemed to leave the impression it hit hard and thus would be the better choice it only chipped the paint and was pretty much a fail.
The 30 caliber however went clean through and would in this case was the better round.
Don't be fooled by big splash vodoo. But your observation was accurate.
I just don't agree with the conclusion in this case.
If you are shooting at 'plates or bottles' the 45 is great. But REAL world shooting show the proper caliber and bullet for each application will very greatly. For self defense the 125gr JHP 357 is without question the 'best of the best'.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
If you are shooting at 'plates or bottles' the 45 is great. But REAL world shooting show the proper caliber and bullet for each application will very greatly. For self defense the 125gr JHP 357 is without question the 'best of the best'.

Where do you get the 125 grainer is the best? I've shot enough Deer sized game over the years that I'm not buying into the 125 grain at all.
 

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Would that be a European swallow, or African swallow? ;)

With all due respect, Jim Rau, when you make a statement like that, you really need to be prepared to offer SOME kind of proof, or at least qualification. Refuting conventional wisdom without backing it up, in some way, doesn't reflect well on your "opinion".
 

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Jim Rau are you kidding?Have you ever seen or used that round on a live human being?Have you ever seen anyone hit with a 357sig,40,9mm,or a 45,357 w 158gr ammo,38sp anything?How can you say that caliber and load is the "best of the best" for self defense?I have been unfortunate enough to see the effects of several and my opinion is a 45 is about the worst on the recievers end.
 

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And yes jwp475 I do agree bigger calibers show more visible sign.While doing some longer range shooting in Wyoming this past October with a friend three calibers were shot,the 44,45colt and 475L.There was a very noticeble difference in being able to see the bullet impacts on the hillside.When the wind picked up it eliminated being able to even see the dust from the impacts of the 44 &45,but the 475L continued to show us where we were hitting.So in my observations also you are correct.
 

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We're a bunch of ornery old men...do we really need a topic to argue about?! :D
 

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I think a .357cal. 180gr. WFNGC at 1100fps impact velocity will kill a deer just as dead as a .44cal. 250gr. WFNGC at 1100fps. Double shoulder shot...How dead is dead? If we throw in a 300 WinMag, maybe we should talk about edible meat? Grenade affect? To each our own. May the new year bring you good cheer and good fortune. Hi Marshall!!!
Terry
 

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Where do you get the 125 grainer is the best? I've shot enough Deer sized game over the years that I'm not buying into the 125 grain at all.
I have never seen a need to 'defend' myself form deer.
The actual shootings, involving humans, have proven this thousands of times in the last 40+ years.
As stated above, the 180 gr loads are best for deer.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have never seen a need to 'defend' myself form deer.
The actual shootings, involving humans, have proven this thousands of times in the last 40+ years.
As stated above, the 180 gr loads are best for deer.
Animals are flesh and blood and are a good test mediumsince useing people i against the law.

The leading authority in the worldon Terminal ballistics Dr. Martin Fackler dosen't agree with you and your light bullet theory.

You make alot of claims about proof, but never provide any, much like Marshall and Saanow all made up .
 

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Animals are flesh and blood and are a good test mediumsince useing people i against the law.

The leading authority in the worldon Terminal ballistics Dr. Martin Fackler dosen't agree with you and your light bullet theory.

You make alot of claims about proof, but never provide any, much like Marshall and Saanow all made up .
How many people have you shot?
How many shootings, of humans, do you have FIRST HAND knowledge of?
Do as you please, when my life is on the line, as it has been many times, I will go with what has proven to be the best. And comparing 'animals' to 'humans' when choosing a self defence caliber/weapon is like comparing house cats to elephants.
 
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